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 Post subject: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:45 am 
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For any established political party, the euro-elections are a nightmare. There is no point in producing a manifesto as there is no means by which it can be honoured. Nor can they address the hard questions – like what would you do about the CFP … or the CAP … or …

Hence, we get that certain air of unreality that so often pervades EU politics, encapsulated in the new slogan picked by the Conservative Party for this particular round of elections. "Tell Labour you want the referendum they promised. Vote Conservative on 4th June," it runs.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 am 
The Conservatives are running a stupid campaign.

They will get elected, even with Bimbo Dave as leader. Therefore, they need no more be "slick" and hide their colours.

The populace will vote like crazy for an anti-EU party - one that delivers a referendum on signing the Constitutional Treaty.

But they are all Cowards awaiting their good awards from teh Brussels Nomenclatura.

Shame. Shame!


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:53 am
Posts: 1391
Location: England
David Cameron has already dropped a promise from a former leader to repatriate if necessary the CFP. David Cameron has procrastinated over his promise to lead his MEP's out of the federalist EPP. If he does not keep his own promise to hold a referendum, the poster might just as well have his face on it also. I wrote a letter to the DT yesterday that was not published:

Sir,

I agree with John Clark's view that every Labour Government has destroyed our economy to a lesser or greater degree. My own father who has a longer memory says every Labour Government ends with a financial crisis. However, most people think we have only two alternative parties fit for government, so when one messes up, who do we turn to? I hope the day never comes when the electorate believes neither are fit for government, although unless David Cameron improves within the next five years, we could be facing precisely that. The Tories might try to climb the moral high ground of trust and honesty. Their policy on Europe will shatter that. We are already largely ruled by Europe, they will not halt this process or reverse it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:09 am 
There will be a new group at the start of the new Parliament - called European Conservatives & Reformers Group (or Reformists). M Howard had agreed to be in the EPP-ED for the duration of this parliament and DC chose not to reverse the Conservative's commitment.

re: the referendum - I know it is frustrating that "we will not let matters rest there" is not more fleshed out but let's be frank. All of us should be putting pressure on Labour to give the referendum. Now. Why should the Conservatives be held to ransom by either Eurosceptics or indeed the Labour party on giving a position on a theoretical situation. The Lisbon Treaty has not been ratified yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:17 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 307
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/ ... ve-on.html

... [Daniel Hannan] may speak from the prestigious conference platform, but he may never serve on the Conservative front bench. This is the unalterable judgement of David Cameron as punishment for Mr Hannan’s membership of ‘Better Off Out’, which is, of course, an ideological heresy.

... a view, incidentally, which is shared by the majority of members of the Conservative Party if not the majority of the population of the country?

In what sense are we ‘better off in’ the euro, the EPP, the CAP, the CFP, the Lisbon Treaty, the ECHR?

Yet Conservative politicians who defy the (present) Party line in their articulation of this pro-EU dogma do so with impunity.

While Mr Hannan is (amongst others) inexplicably and unjustly exiled in perpetuity.

Unless, of course, as Plato observed, the political conference is just pure sophistry. And ‘ever closer union’ is really the covert orthodoxy. ...

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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:35 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
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Quote:
Why should the Conservatives be held to ransom by either Eurosceptics or indeed the Labour party on giving a position on a theoretical situation. The Lisbon Treaty has not been ratified yet.


It's called leadership. We know what we're going to do with you, but we're not telling you is a position so deeply childish that it is hardly surprising that you and the political classes can't hear what you are saying, or at least how it sounds to us.

As a tory gang member you have no idea who is actually setting your policy, who DC rings every morning to get his opinions for the day. Yet you are happy to obey tory HQ, a tory before you are an Englishman.
Because I'm a boring old fart I'll repeat the little gem that for the ancient Greeks there was no word for I obey, only I am persuaded.
I cannot be persuaded by silence, and I've got into quite enough trouble by obeying blindly.

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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:47 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:27 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: Oxford, UK
Translation of Mastiff's position:

We will do whatever our focus groups and/or the BBC, the Indy and the Guardian will let us do. We don't make promises unless we can be sure they are going to be popular.
We don't do principles.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:41 am 
Claims of "the demise of UKIP" are much exaggerated.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
Anyone who thinks the Green Tosser will change anything much, just has to look at Boris' pathetic record.....the Western extension of the Congestion Charge has yet to be canceled and why has the whole Congestion Charge not been canceled ...plus bendy buses, which he used heavily against Ken, still prowl the streets, slaughtering pedestrians and cyclists.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 1384
I vaguely recall that the Routemaster was phased out because of disabled access legislation which came ultimately from the EU, so BJ who had talked the issue of bendy buses up, maybe disingenuously, found that he had a much bigger fight on his hands than it appears at first sight. Anyway, the bendy bus saga doesn't speak well for the man.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:03 pm 
Your post omits one other scenario that may occur. Lisbon might be stopped in its tracks by the German supreme court. The promise of a referendum when Lisbon has failed to be ratified by one or more key countries is not exactly going to hold much relevance...unless it's a referendum on EU membership total. Why hold a referendum on a Treaty which is either 100% ratified or 100% stalled? In either case the proposed referendum is superfluous and without any possible effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:08 pm 
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comet wrote:
I vaguely recall that the Routemaster was phased out because of disabled access legislation which came ultimately from the EU, so BJ who had talked the issue of bendy buses up, maybe disingenuously, found that he had a much bigger fight on his hands than it appears at first sight. Anyway, the bendy bus saga doesn't speak well for the man.


There was, indeed, an EU directive that made the routemasters unfeasible but it did not impose the bendy buses. The reason for not phasing them out yet (no new ones are being put into circulation but that started under Ken) is the same why congestion charge in the centre cannot be abolished (apart from being rather popular unlike the Western extension of it): economics, dear boy, economics.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:24 pm 
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We know the Labour party is not to be trusted but the Tories, or anyone else for that matter, need to prove they are, if they are having a pop at someone else. You can give cast iron guarantees for theoretical situations. What we want Mastiff is someone who mean what they say and do it. We are tired of having our elected representatives screwing us over and representing themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:34 pm 
Mastiff wrote:
Why should the Conservatives be held to ransom by either Eurosceptics or indeed the Labour party on giving a position on a theoretical situation.?

As soon as a politician, or an apologist for one, introduces the words 'theoretical' or 'hypothetical' in order to avoid answering a question you know you're dealing with a bullshitter. And a phucking stupid one at that — he thinks everyone else is dumber than he is.

Daily life is FULL of hypotheticals. We are dealing with hypotheticals all the time. Hypotheticals R Us.

When their potential effects are not minor we make an extra effort to allow for them. We call it planning ahead, or contingency planning if we want to get paid for it. Some people just call it managing.

So when someone says, "I don't deal in hypothetheticals or what-if questions" he's telling you he doesn't plan ahead. Now I've never met anyone who doesn't think ahead in one way or another when confronted with alternatives. So he's lying.

Right. So let's rip out the references to hypotheticals and theoreticals since they are just so much verbal chaff employed as witless argument deflectors and restate what is actually being said:
Quote:
Why should the Conservatives be held to ransom by either Eurosceptics or indeed the Labour party on giving a position?

Now we see the argument in all its glory.

Laughable, isn't it. Or it would be if the matter weren't so serious.


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 Post subject: Sending a message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:32 am
Posts: 824
Location: Tasmania
Quote:
Mr Cameron {has]....refused to say whether the Conservatives would hold a referendum if they won the next election but the treaty had already been ratified by all the member states. He simply repeated the previous formula that "they would not let matters rest there".


The way I see it is that Cameron, by using the words "We will not let matters rest there" has in fact made himself a hostage to fortune. And every time he makes a EU-critical statement over the nexr few weeks before the euro-elections, & during the run-up to the next general election, he makes himself more of a hostage. Presumably unintentionally, but very usefully so, in my opinion.

How? Well, unless he is quite tough on the EU, after a Tory election victory next year, he will be repeatedly criticised by EU opponents for not keeping his, & other Tories', anti-EU election promises. So, to avoid damaging criticism of his leadership & premiership, he will need to be sufficiently euro-sceptic (whatever his true inclinations are) just to cover his back. It's simple survival tactics! In this situation, the euro-sceptical tail will have plenty of opportunities to wag the dog! Both in the Tory party & outside it.

Watchet


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