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 Post subject: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Speaking at the Tories' Spring Conference in Cheltenham, William Hague, the part-time Shadow Foreign Secretary and full time after-dinner speaker, has attacked the Labour Government for not giving the people a referendum on the Constitutional Lisbon Treaty.

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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:15 pm 
William Hague wrote:
[Labour] have not only devalued the currency of the nation, but their breaking of promises has been so brazen, and in the case of the referendum so inexcusable, that they have debased the coinage of politics itself. Their legacy will be to leave office with the word of government less believed than at any time in our lifetimes - another aspect of the scorched earth they will leave behind them, on which only a new government can plant the seeds of trust and belief afresh.

You won't grow anything there now. The ground's a toxic waste dump, Mr Hague, or hadn't you noticed? You should have. Your party allocated the site and spread Maastricht all over it. You seem upset that Labour have followed your lead. Weird.

The topsoil will have to be removed and replaced. It's a pity that, like the rest of the mainstream political scum, you built your tory house on it. But there you go — that'll have to go too, and so will its squatter occupants.

Trust cameron, Mr Hague? Ha phucking ha. NO.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:01 am 
With regard to "what will Cameron,Hague do then", simple,put it to the Great British people,as it should have been.Although,is it not the case, that it is in 'Bilderbergers' interest,that Britain is kept in the EU...Mr.Hague...Mr. Clarke ??


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 Post subject: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:48 pm 

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I've always suspected that Hague & Cameron hope that the Lisbon Treaty will be finally done & dusted (by the time they come to power - probably mid-next year) with a second Irish referendum's support safely under Brussels' belt, plus the reluctant acquiescence of the Czech & Polish presidents & the German Constitutional Court. However, if the latter (hopefully, as far as I am concerned, though that view may not be shared by the Tory leadership) hold up the treaty, then the Tories can keep their public pledge (unlike Labour) & hold a referendum on Lisbon.

But if Lisbon has gone through before the Tories come to power (assuming that they win in next year's election), then what? Will they call a retroactive referendum, & cause real ire among most other EU members? I hope they have the guts for this, but strongly doubt it. So how could/would they follow a different tack which would nonetheless gain them the British public's firm support re EU matters? Here are some possible suggestions:

1. Repeal the repeal by Brown & Blair of Maggie T's UK rebate on the grounds that Britain cannot afford to pay anymore during this recession.
2. Strongly & publically criticise all & every EU failing, reminding british people that while they are going without during an austerity wave caused by a prolonged recession, the EU remains a gravy train, MEPs' only skill is in expenses fraud, the EU's finances have failed to get their auditors' signature of approval yet again, the CFP is an ecological disaster, & the EU's climate change policy is completely misconceived etc etc
3. Say Britain will only pay in what it gets out of the EU - based on each previous year's results. No more, no less. So ending the ridiculous situation where Britain's makes the biggest net contribution to the EU per year, yet its voters are the ones among member countries who are least keen on the EU, & have a lower standard of living than many other EU countries' citizens.
4. Threaten referendums on either all or on most fines that are imposed on Britain by the EU or the ECJ, with an absolute refusal to pay if the people say "No" in the resulting referendum.
5. Alternatively, threaten no more UK money for the EU until any threatened or imposed fines by the EU or ECJ are withdrawn.

Whether Hague et al will have the guts to do all or any of these, we shall see. But if Labour have been able to spin their falsehoods out of nothing so often during this last very regretable 12 years of their mis-rule, surely a Tory government could use anti-EU feeling for its own electoral benefit - without actually leaving the EU, while leaving this as an undeclared but acceptable possibility under extreme circumstances.

We shall see, probably within the next 18 months, what guts or the opposite the Tory leadership have - ie as far as confronting the EU is concerned! Let's hope they have the guts, but regretably there is no certainty about that at this stage.

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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
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Considering that we are flat broke and tdy i read that none of the Bank bail out costs were in McSnots future borrowing requirements!!!!!! Which means that even if the fantasy growth forecasts where met, which they won't be , the number will skyrocket even more. So the 40 million pounds/day that we pay the EU, is going to look even more outrageous, than before......and very soon absolutely untenable.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:42 pm 
You make an assumption that the Conservatives secretly want Lisbon to be fully ratified and in force before the next general election - I rather doubt that that is an assumption that can be made; and if that assumption is wrong, the Conservative policy is to withdraw the instruments of ratification and hold that referendum ...

The Conservative policy if the Lisbon Treaty is in force is that 'they won't let matters rest there' - it is deliberately vague as it depends on a hypothetical situation that has yet to arise - and it leaves the power to negotiate without setting out your position in that negotiation in advance of it becoming necessary. You wouldn't show your hand in full in advance of a dispute negotiation so why do you expect such revelations in advance of something that has yet to happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:17 pm
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EDLP wrote:
You make an assumption that the Conservatives secretly want Lisbon to be fully ratified and in force before the next general election - I rather doubt that that is an assumption that can be made; and if that assumption is wrong, the Conservative policy is to withdraw the instruments of ratification and hold that referendum ...


It comes down to what exactly their policy is and how far they can be trusted to carry out what people deem to be their policy based on their vague statements; in other words, how much you trust them.

I'm inclined to think they'll make noises in opposition and go with the flow towards EU integration when in office; I don't trust them at all on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:28 pm 
EDLP,

So, for the voting public, Tory policy on the EU boils down to "trust us". That's the most generous thing that can be said about it.

But with their record, why should anyone? So what kind of policy is that?

In any event, your apology for their policy entails that the basis of democracy in the UK—our sovereignty—is 'negotiable'. That's a funny kind of policy for people calling themselves conservatives.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:02 pm 
No - if the treaty is not in force, we will have a referendum.

If, in what appears an unlikely event at the moment, the treaty is in force, we cannot 'unratify' it. As a matter of law, international treaties, once in force, cannot be 'unratified'. As a matter of English law, the signing of a treaty is a matter for the Royal Prerogative. If the Lisbon Treaty is ratified and in force, we can't simply hold a referendum to undo the effect of the Lisbon Treaty, we will have to enter detailed negotiations to discuss reform of the EU which will be operating pursuant to the reforms contained in that treaty - at the moment, the negotiations are dependent on a hypothetical event that has yet to occur. I would rather wait for that event to be imminent before my party reveals what it intends to do so that the effect cannot be anticipated in advance by those who would wish to pre-empt us.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:29 pm 

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Ultimately all political parties have shown that trust is meaningless to them. Ultimately all parties have an agenda of power for power's sake and any thought of the good of the Realm or the people is marginalized as politics vies with Big Brother as to who can plumb greater depths of fatuous banality. The tories claim to be keeping their policies close to their chests in case they get nicked, to which one can only say bullshit and chips! If you have a sensible policy you want it nicked! then if it works it was your idea, if it fails it was their implementation, win-win.
The tories, like the party system itself, are morally bankrupt and laid naked in their ineptitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:22 pm 

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I'm sure there would be many ways to get round the objection that the treaty had been ratified and was upheld by the Vienna Convention on Treaties, for instance, that the treaty is fraudulent. A post-ratification referendum would be them keeping a promise and acting on it, despite the pettyfogging.

It's a question of having the political will, and in my view, the Tories don't have that will.

I think they objected to the treaty because they thought it was safe so to do. In opposition they could take a "principled" stance and they were gambling that it would be out of the way when they took the watch.

They witter on about "repatriating powers" and "not letting matters rest", but it's all part of an exercise in nods to the EuroSceptics and winks to the Europhiles. What they'll actually do is take the path of least resistance, which means further EU integration.

You can believe otherwise if you wish, I think they've got too much previous form for anything else to be credible.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:29 pm 
SandRham, if that's your view, what the point? It's almost nihilist in its cynicism.

Comet: the treaty is 'fraudulent' in the sense that it is void or voidable - and if you don't accept what Conservatives say they will do then so be it. I don't believe that it is a matter of nods and winks -

As to ever-closer union - watch this space.


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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:36 pm 
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EDLP wrote:
SandRham, if that's your view, what the point? It's almost nihilist in its cynicism.

Comet: the treaty is 'fraudulent' in the sense that it is void or voidable - and if you don't accept what Conservatives say they will do then so be it. I don't believe that it is a matter of nods and winks -

As to ever-closer union - watch this space.


It is hardly cynical. It is a matter of reading the form book. Consistently, the greatest promoters of European political integration has been the Conservative Party. It requires a huge leap of faith to believe that anything has changed, expecially as the integrationalist tendency have consistently been cloaked in lies and double-speak. The CP has basically used up its fund of trust. Nothing short of bankable commitments will now have any credibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Spring in Cheltenham
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:48 pm 
EDLP wrote:
No - if the treaty is not in force, we will have a referendum."

"No"? No to what? What question of mine does "if the treaty is not in force, we will have a referendum" answer? And if it's not in answer to any question of mine what is it in contradiction to that I or Comet have stated?

EDLP wrote:
I would rather wait for that event to be imminent before my party reveals what it intends to do so that the effect cannot be anticipated in advance by those who would wish to pre-empt us.

So, for the voting public, Tory policy on the EU boils down to "trust us". That's the most generous thing that can be said about it.

But with their record, why should anyone? So what kind of policy is that?

In any event, your apology for their policy entails that the basis of democracy in the UK—our sovereignty—is 'negotiable'. That's a funny kind of policy for people calling themselves conservatives.

Oh, I said all that already. How quickly one forgets.


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