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 Post subject: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:40 pm 
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Location: Bradford
Given that the recycling system has ground to a halt with the collapse of the China market for our rubbish a report from the Institution of Mechanical Engineers advocating the use of combustible waste to produce electricity seems to make absolute sense. Entitled "A wasted opportunity", it is picked up by the media today, as in The Times and sundry others, and given a fairly clear run.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 1291
Location: UK
We’re segregating paper only because of landfill restrictions. We’re looking for bio-mass only because of renewables targets. In a rational world would EfW be economic? In our irrational world is it economic, even if it was classified as biomass ? I’ve scrolled through the .pdf. Have I missed it, or is there not a single financial estimate in it – capital cost, cost per kWhr , recycling costs etc. ?

Still, guess it’s better than the idiot Cranfield professor who was advising the government to build nuclear powered aircraft a few weeks ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:32 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:52 am
Posts: 841
I remember the story about the cardboard furnace linked to a board plant, to use for generation on this blog, but it was some time ago. Shows how the Institute of Mechanical Engineers keep up with developments. At this rate they will suggest steam locomotion some time next year, or the year after. PDT_Armataz_01_18


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:47 pm 
Does anyone know this firm?
http://www.reclaimresources.com/

I know someone who works for a chain of UK ports and they told me that they've had a lot of trouble recently with Climafuel imports - the stuff keeps "spontaneously combusting" while still in port, apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:47 pm 
Landfill gas is another cheap source of energy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:55 pm
Posts: 519
Location: USA
Richard, re: your comment about ad-hoc policy making.....

I agree with your observation, but, I think that this is indicative of a broader social problem (which is not to say that pols AREN'T clueless buffoons PDT_Armataz_01_18 ).
The issue I'm referring to is limited attention span and the constantly accelerating pace of life in general. No one is allowed time to think and consider anymore. I see it in my own profession (software) more and more. 30 years ago "brain storming" was the norm for intricate problems, now at best half the population is dragged into a formal 1 hour meeting where all answers are to be delivered.

Obviously this doesn't work and the only productive work is done via "back channels". Pols are the victims of their own egos and desire to be in the press. As soon as a problem is mooted they have to deliver THE answer, so, you get ad hoc policy because, of course, once something is said it can never be retracted.

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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:46 pm 
Isn't the root of the problem that politics is an all consuming occupation,networking and climbing the greasy pole leave no time to acquire a knowledge of anything. Thus politicians,like magpies,catch glittering snippets to attach themselves to,often their only knowledge is the buzz words and soundbites about the subject.
As said above ego is a great driving force,principally though,politicians are con artists whose stock in trade is to sound authoritative.The rise of the professional politician has increased the number of these mountebanks,society has descended into chaos in direct ratio to this.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 am
Posts: 513
Segregating waste streams is a good idea, the whole point of a waste management strategy should be to use each type of waste in the best way, recycling metal is always going to be a good idea (despite the occasional market hiccup), same goes for glass (though only if it's pre-sorted, these councils who mix on collection are bloody fools), plastic is a tricky case, on paper it works, in reality it doesn't, but it could, it would take a massive shift in the way goods are packaged in the UK and a complete overhaul of waste collection services (can you see people sorting their plastic bottles not only by type of plastic, but by colour as well) which will takes years, cost a fortune and make little difference anyway, the rest of what's left can be ground up and either gas capture composted or put into a gas capture landfill (and used either for powerstaions or to reduce natural gas imports for home supply), the paper waste stream can be burnt, recycled into paper products or used as a feedstock for cellulosic ethanol production.

Even if we did all this we would still need "landfill" (actually any kind of fill will do) for inert waste, non recyclable white goods and contaminated waste, what we should be thinking about is where is the best place to put this stuff so it can do us some good instead of just filling up old quarries.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
We all know who has screwed up our waste manangement system, just like they have screwed up everything they touch, our own dolts just gold plated the screw up. Only this time, this particular screw up has been exposed by the financial screw up, for which they also have much to be blamed for, not least the idea of the FSA, yet another screw up.

Gosh that's an awfull lot of screw up's, but that's all the EU ever does, screw up..

PS. It does give me real joy to watch the Al-Beeb in particular, try and report on what must by now be a monster problem and growing, of what to do with all this re-cycled crap. After all their non stop propaganda, about how we must sift through all our rubbish, to save poor gaia and then to have to announce that it was all for nothing.

PPS. How long before we find out that the Green morons in Council's re-cycling dept's, are paying out fortunes, that they don't have, to store rotting crap, in the hope that the mkt will come back.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 am
Posts: 513
Don't worry, I'm sure their will be a series of unexplainable fires at the storage sites, from which the council will claim the peak resale value of the waste from their insurers


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
Quote:
Don't worry, I'm sure their will be a series of unexplainable fires at the storage sites, from which the council will claim the peak resale value of the waste from their insurers


Insurers ain't dumb, they'll pay the mkt rate, damn all.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:30 am
Posts: 825
Location: Traveling again.
A long time ago ( I shudder to think ) a group of friends spent many happy Sundays on the Norfolk Broads, where years before there had been a very, very large land fill, (several large barges sunk, still visible below the water ). The treasures were abound, hundreds of bottles, yep them with the marble stopper, what remained was the goodies, things of value, silver knives, spoons, silver tea pots, gold chains, coins, pewter, iron things, and my prize, which is here in Italy a copper pot (-+ 10 gallons ) still in use today making Grappa ( Italian Vodka ) visitors to my humble abode always ask where the pot came from as it hangs in the fire place a real witches cauldron, the lid and the spiral tube( made in Italy) are not for sale as my Grappa is a local nightmare.

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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:27 pm 
--------------------------------
PS. It does give me real joy to watch the Al-Beeb in particular, try and report on what must by now be a monster problem and growing, of what to do with all this re-cycled crap. After all their non stop propaganda, about how we must sift through all our rubbish, to save poor gaia and then to have to announce that it was all for nothing.

PPS. How long before we find out that the Green morons in Council's re-cycling dept's, are paying out fortunes, that they don't have, to store rotting crap, in the hope that the mkt will come back.
---------------------------------

The online version of Shukes (David Shukman) doing his thing can be found here:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7854137.stm

The utter breathtaking, oh it'll be alright despite the problems, evangelical nature of the piece is quite extraordinary. It seems it's not the councils who are storing the rotting crap but the recycling companies. I just don't believe some of the numbers about the savings in there, and I'm not the only one. Obviously the elephant in the room goes unremarked, well we don't want to frighten the horses what.

As Tim Worstall keeps pointing out if you added all the time that people spend on sorting their recycling the lost opportunity cost is huge, but because it's citizens time not the states it's never counted.


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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 312
Location: The Heights of High Wycombe
I am pleased to relate that trains run from West Waste at South Ruislip/Northolt to the landfill at Calvert.
http://www.westlondonwaste.gov.uk/
http://www.gucs.org.uk/index.htm?http:/ ... l_site.htm
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=calvert ... a=N&tab=wl

There is another landfill at Newton Longville near Bletchley. again rail served.
http://www.hughjames.com/personal/group ... lsite.html
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Newton% ... a=N&tab=wl

Both sites are linked by what looks likely to be a reinstatement of the Varsity Line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Rail_Consortium

The rubbish burial sites are easily distinguished and close to both sites housing sites can be seen. Newton Longville is to be enclosed by Milton Keynes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_Longville
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_ ... ton_Keynes

Sshhh! Don't tell the EU about the rubbish burial sites. PDT_Armataz_01_19

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 Post subject: Re: Sense … but no sense
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 1050
Grey wrote:
Segregating waste streams is a good idea, the whole point of a waste management strategy should be to use each type of waste in the best way, recycling metal is always going to be a good idea (despite the occasional market hiccup), same goes for glass (though only if it's pre-sorted, these councils who mix on collection are bloody fools), plastic is a tricky case, on paper it works, in reality it doesn't, but it could, it would take a massive shift in the way goods are packaged in the UK and a complete overhaul of waste collection services (can you see people sorting their plastic bottles not only by type of plastic, but by colour as well) which will takes years, cost a fortune and make little difference anyway, the rest of what's left can be ground up and either gas capture composted or put into a gas capture landfill (and used either for powerstaions or to reduce natural gas imports for home supply), the paper waste stream can be burnt, recycled into paper products or used as a feedstock for cellulosic ethanol production.

Even if we did all this we would still need "landfill" (actually any kind of fill will do) for inert waste, non recyclable white goods and contaminated waste, what we should be thinking about is where is the best place to put this stuff so it can do us some good instead of just filling up old quarries.


Why should we bother. Why cant convicts do it as a day out from prison, given time off from their sentence if they sort out so many tons of different recyclables ?


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