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 Post subject: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Playing big in the news today is the report from the UK Drug Policy Commission (UKDPC) that drug seizures by the police have little impact on Britain's (illegal) drug market. In a market estimated to be worth some £5.3 billion, expenditure of £380 million on reducing the supply of drugs in 2005/6 had no measurable effect, despite seizures of Class A drugs having more than doubled between 1996 and 2005.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:37 pm 
I think you will find production of Cocaine in Colombia has dropped since 2001. It has of course increase in Peru etc


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:50 pm 
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I think you will find that it has gone back up again.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 426105.ece

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:59 pm 
It's Catch 22. The World Trade Organisation, now far too big and cumbersome for anyone's good, is made impotent by nationalistic strategies; but members of the European Union are forbidden from coming to bi-lateral agreements that might break the deadlock outlined by Richard. Britain needs a bill in Parliament to repeal the European Communities Act, not to smash Europe but to break the deadly logjam of Euro legislation damming the current of independent and creative political action. Until then we need another Joseph Heller or Jonathan Swift to put this ludicrous, overblown and dangerous institution (the EU) into perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:00 pm 
Of course, the "solution" is to legalize (and TAX) the popular drugs which are now illegal.

If folks could buy their drugs of choice from their local liquor stores (or whatever you blokes call them) as they now buy wine and spirits, whole criminal organizations would disappear and farmers the world over would be able to compete to supply quality products to market. If Afghanistan remained the lowest cost producer their farmers could continue to grow poppies -- but they wouldn't have to buy protection from the local warlords (and the Taliban). Terrorist funding would suffer a major blow.

All countries would experience a dramatic drop in expenditures, an enormous increase in taxes paid, and would put tens of thousands of pulbic servants back on private payrolls (or looking for same) where they could actually lead productive lives. And our prisons would be largely emptied (or at least have room for violent sorts).

The WARS on drugs have never worked. Consumption hasn't declined. And we're creating felons and incarcerating them at great expense for running contraband. it needs to stop.


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:14 pm 
I would legalise it but the issue of tax is difficult because it warps the real price, and adds an incentive to get it cheaper through criminal means!

If the government was to have any effect, it would be to ensure that the whole market from poppy field to street was as simple as possible - again to ensure the removal of the criminal element from any area of the trade.

Of course, there are some police men who are campaigning for legalisation of drugs like heroin for different reasons. When the drugs are legal, less people get arrested. This shows that crime is dropping - and if you live in an area where crime is so low, you spend your time catching motorists for speeding - even lower crime would not effect the funding available!


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:25 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:29 pm
Posts: 307
Quote:
Terrorist funding would suffer a major blow.


Now steady on...

...that would end the 'war on terror'. Its a preposterous idea... PDT_Armataz_01_02


If all our kids' drug money was on the books; and we had to pay tax on it, there would be anarchy... PDT_Armataz_01_03
I mean where would the tossers hide their cut of the action...?

This is Communism; and I won't have it... PDT_Armataz_01_07

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:30 pm 

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To get heroin off the streets you treat addicts as sick and deal with them through hostels, where their usage may be monitored. This would be more than funded by the reduction in crime.

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:01 pm 
This whole notion of fighting drugs by free trade is absolutely ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is that there is no crop in this entire world that pays better then say weed or coca.
Or do you also propose to pay the same amount for their regular crops as the drugsmaffia pays for their drugcrops??
And if so, do you really thinbk we can win a price-war with the drugsmaffia??


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:07 pm 
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erdebe wrote:
This whole notion of fighting drugs by free trade is absolutely ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is that there is no crop in this entire world that pays better then say weed or coca.

Or do you also propose to pay the same amount for their regular crops as the drugsmaffia pays for their drugcrops??

And if so, do you really thinbk we can win a price-war with the drugsmaffia??


I generally find it is helpful to speak from knowledge based on research, rather than air one's ignorance in public. That way you avoid making baseless statements like: "This whole notion of fighting drugs by free trade is absolutely ridiculous."

If you actually took the time out to read the links provided on the post - especially the one on Afhgnaistan, you would find that growing drug crops is actually less profitable than growing legitimate, high value crops. The problem is that the growers cannot find a market for their legitmate produce and resort to illegitmate crops.

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:28 pm 

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The problem is that the growers cannot find a market for their legitmate produce and resort to illegitmate crops.


Oh, they can find the market alright; its just no-one can afford to buy the crops, so they sell the drugs internationally instead...

Talk about research, do you think poppy production goes up when we occupy an area by design or are the people the victim of circumstance...? or perhaps another unexplained coincidence...?


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:59 pm 
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cause4concern wrote:
Code:
The problem is that the growers cannot find a market for their legitmate produce and resort to illegitmate crops.


Oh, they can find the market alright; its just no-one can afford to buy the crops, so they sell the drugs internationally instead...

Talk about research, do you think poppy production goes up when we occupy an area by design or are the people the victim of circumstance...? or perhaps another unexplained coincidence...?


To para 1. If the people cannot afford to buy the crops, then is isn't a "market" is it!

To para 2. If you had read the link provided, you would have found the answer to that already, without having to make clever clogs comments.

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:34 am 
I don't agree with you Dr. North!

You say that a significant part of the problem is the failure of developed nations to open their markets, well let me see now, ask any child over 14 years who has drugs for sale, ask any child over 14 how many people they know that use drugs, go to the local and ask where you can buy drugs, all questions that 51% of the time gets answers.

Try driving at 50 mph in a 30 mph zone, park you car in a no parking zone, drive through a red light, a few of the many things that get 99.9% results from the drive-by police, years ago the British Bobby was the envy of the world, now he is listed below the Nigerian police force, what you are implying Dr. North is that the problem does not center on the law enforcement but on import tariffs, perhaps the problem could be resolved by a drug tax?


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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:46 am 
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nottoobrite1 wrote:
I don't agree with you Dr. North!

You say that a significant part of the problem is the failure of developed nations to open their markets, well let me see now, ask any child over 14 years who has drugs for sale, ask any child over 14 how many people they know that use drugs, go to the local and ask where you can buy drugs, all questions that 51% of the time gets answers.

Try driving at 50 mph in a 30 mph zone, park you car in a no parking zone, drive through a red light, a few of the many things that get 99.9% results from the drive-by police, years ago the British Bobby was the envy of the world, now he is listed below the Nigerian police force, what you are implying Dr. North is that the problem does not center on the law enforcement but on import tariffs, perhaps the problem could be resolved by a drug tax?


The title of my piece, it seems, was right on the button - one which applies with equal measure to your response. When the price of a heroin "wrap" has halved over the last decade - in cash terms not taking account inflation - and now costs less than a packet of cigarettes, there is obviously a supply-side issue.

The thrust of my piece was that concentrating on "end of pipe solutions", without addressing the supply side, was not going to succeed. Nothing you write addresses that point.

As for the idea of a "drugs tax" and import tariffs - how does that affect the illegal trade which - by definition - is outside the law? How does that stop pushers selling cut-price illegal drugs to kids outside the school gate?

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 Post subject: Re: A one-dimensional view
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:56 am 
RAENORTH wrote:
I think you will find that it has gone back up again.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 426105.ece

Still down on 2001 I think.
However saying the problem is lack of other sources of income for Colombia is the problem is not 100% true.
The FARC are a terrorist group and so it would be difficult for them to finance themselves by a legal source of money.

The solution either a)legalize drugs b) punish the users more.

As long as criminals can make money due to drugs - they will. Look at what happened to Cannabis when Morocco cut down on the trade - Vietnamese immigrants in the UK and Canada started doing it in houses.


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