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 Post subject: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:55 pm 
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The availability of additional material on-line from the National Archives has had me busily downloading thousands of pages of files. Of special interest are the Chiefs of Staff bundles. They not only add points of detail which support the thesis developed in The Many Not The Few, they offer something that very few books are able to convey.

What comes over is quite how little attention was being devoted at the very highest level to the prospect of imminent invasion of the UK. Even when the threat is supposed to be at its most extreme, the Chiefs are considering the fate of areas as diverse as Malta, Greece, East Africa, Malaya and Hong Kong.

Remarkably, on 15 September - later marked out as Battle of Britain Day - the very date that invasion is expected when one might have though that minds would be totally focused on impending doom, under consideration is the transfer of an Australian division to India.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Brilliant...and dismaying stuff. As the old adage goes: The Truth will out...eventually.
Even then one must ask the question. was it really so as the new information suggests?
You may remember my post, many moons ago that, as a young soldier at the time, I was astonished by the waste of food in the Army. For those who perished or survived at sea a situation nothing short of shameless.
Research will doubtless unearth more contrdictions than final clarity.
We are indebted to you for the painstaking updates, Richard.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:58 pm 

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Channel 5 is showing the Lost Evidence "Battle Of Britain" episode in two minutes' time. I have no idea of its quality and assume it peddles the orthodox view. It's on YouTube for those too late to tune into Mr Desmond's channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeaGMRu2qnk

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:21 pm
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Richard,

Waiting eagerly for your next installment, but in the meantime a question: Have you read this blog? If you have - and I wouldn't put it past you ( :lol: ) despite the fact that I only found it a few minutes ago - forget the rest of this post. However, on the odd chance that it has passed you by, the blogger has a whole section on the London Underground at war (The London Underground on this day 70 years ago...)

Stuffed with traffic and damamges reports and lots of technical details. It appears that the Underground did not provide total safety, though, the alternative most often was much worse. The post 9th/10th September 1940 is interesting. I don't know if this, and similar incidents, were the reasons for the authorities to try and stop people from spending the nights in the Underground, but whether that was the case or not it certainly is part of the history.


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Lucky for us that at the start of ww2 Raeder was in charge of the German Navy and not Donitz otherwise the Germans would have built many more U boats than they did and we would have been deeply in the dwang. I believe that there was a problem getting the RAF to release aircraft for maritime patrol and that this problem escalated to the extent that Coastal Command was eventually placed under naval control.


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:31 pm 
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mikgen wrote:
Richard,

Waiting eagerly for your next installment, but in the meantime a question: Have you read this blog? If you have - and I wouldn't put it past you ( :lol: ) despite the fact that I only found it a few minutes ago - forget the rest of this post. However, on the odd chance that it has passed you by, the blogger has a whole section on the London Underground at war (The London Underground on this day 70 years ago...)

Stuffed with traffic and damamges reports and lots of technical details. It appears that the Underground did not provide total safety, though, the alternative most often was much worse. The post 9th/10th September 1940 is interesting. I don't know if this, and similar incidents, were the reasons for the authorities to try and stop people from spending the nights in the Underground, but whether that was the case or not it certainly is part of the history.


Yes ... I'd had a look at it some time ago. It is far too detailed for me ... he allows virutally as much space to his trains as I do the whole battle. As for safety issues, I don't see any record of safety issues having been raised at Cabinet. Pre war, as I recall, the tubes had been fitted with huge flood gates. Those, I think, would have sealed off any areas liable to flooding. You can still see the gates in some of the stations.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Jazz606 wrote:
Lucky for us that at the start of ww2 Raeder was in charge of the German Navy and not Donitz otherwise the Germans would have built many more U boats than they did and we would have been deeply in the dwang. I believe that there was a problem getting the RAF to release aircraft for maritime patrol and that this problem escalated to the extent that Coastal Command was eventually placed under naval control.



Absolutely, on the aircraft. Coastal Command had some Sunderlands but mostly Hudsons and Ansons. They pleased for modern, long-range aircraft ... but requests were refused. Bomber Command had absolute priority.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:04 pm 

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RAENORTH wrote:
Pre war, as I recall, the tubes had been fitted with huge flood gates. Those, I think, would have sealed off any areas liable to flooding. You can still see the gates in some of the stations.


Oh, oh.... When you have time I really think you should take a look at the link I provided.

In short (and I agree, he certainly likes his trains):

Quote:
On the morning of 10 September it was realised that a potentially catastrophic danger to part of the Underground network had occured during the night.

In 1914, the original section of what is now the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line was extended to a new terminus at the then Charing Cross station (now Embankment) on the north bank of the Thames. Rather than reversing, trains were turned by means of a wide clockwise loop tunnel, part of which passed under the River. A single platform for both alighting and boarding was provided on the final part of the loop before the tunnel straightened out again on a northern alignment. A ventilation shaft also linked the loop to the sub-surface District line tunnels above.

....
Quote:
The new trackwork was not connected to the loop, but the tunnel was retained for ventilation purposes by means of the shaft to the District line, and so not completely sealed off, although watertight bulkheads were installed on the river side of the ventilation shaft, and where the other end of the loop met the new southbound tunnel, numbered 13 & 14 respectively.

....
Quote:
During the air raid on the evening of Monday 9 September 1940 - possibly around 23:25[2] - the schooner Seven Seas, moored on the north-east side of Hungerford Bridge, was rocked by the detonation of a 50kg High Explosive (HE) bomb that landed in the River. The crew reported that, "the water appeared to spout up for some 30 seconds after the explosion," caused by air escaping from the ruptured loop. It was later discovered that water was seeping through bulkheads 13 & 14, further indicating that the disused tunnel had been breached.

....
It took until the 20th September for divers to inspect the tunnel.
....
Quote:
A considerable quantity of ballast and mud was lying inside, to a level of around 3-4 feet (1 metre) above the original track level, and the loop between the bulkheads was completely flooded. The extent of the damage was clearly worse than expected, as it was apparent that another bomb landing in the vicinty could cause a "water hammer" effect through the flooded tunnel that would easily breach the bulkheads, flooding the southbound running tunnel, and also the District line via the ventilation shaft.

....
Quote:
Work on the loop tunnel continued, with the plugging of the main breach being finished by Wedneday 6 November, the waterproofing of the disused passageway on the following day, and the construction of the new bulkhead some time after Tuesday 12 November.


(Sorry, for this interruption.)


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm
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Very interesting article.
Is that a Hudson in the first picture?


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:50 pm 
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mikgen wrote:
RAENORTH wrote:
Pre war, as I recall, the tubes had been fitted with huge flood gates. Those, I think, would have sealed off any areas liable to flooding. You can still see the gates in some of the stations.


Oh, oh.... When you have time I really think you should take a look at the link I provided.

In short (and I agree, he certainly likes his trains):

Quote:
On the morning of 10 September it was realised that a potentially catastrophic danger to part of the Underground network had occured during the night.

In 1914, the original section of what is now the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line was extended to a new terminus at the then Charing Cross station (now Embankment) on the north bank of the Thames. Rather than reversing, trains were turned by means of a wide clockwise loop tunnel, part of which passed under the River. A single platform for both alighting and boarding was provided on the final part of the loop before the tunnel straightened out again on a northern alignment. A ventilation shaft also linked the loop to the sub-surface District line tunnels above.

....
Quote:
The new trackwork was not connected to the loop, but the tunnel was retained for ventilation purposes by means of the shaft to the District line, and so not completely sealed off, although watertight bulkheads were installed on the river side of the ventilation shaft, and where the other end of the loop met the new southbound tunnel, numbered 13 & 14 respectively.

....
Quote:
During the air raid on the evening of Monday 9 September 1940 - possibly around 23:25[2] - the schooner Seven Seas, moored on the north-east side of Hungerford Bridge, was rocked by the detonation of a 50kg High Explosive (HE) bomb that landed in the River. The crew reported that, "the water appeared to spout up for some 30 seconds after the explosion," caused by air escaping from the ruptured loop. It was later discovered that water was seeping through bulkheads 13 & 14, further indicating that the disused tunnel had been breached.

....
It took until the 20th September for divers to inspect the tunnel.
....
Quote:
A considerable quantity of ballast and mud was lying inside, to a level of around 3-4 feet (1 metre) above the original track level, and the loop between the bulkheads was completely flooded. The extent of the damage was clearly worse than expected, as it was apparent that another bomb landing in the vicinty could cause a "water hammer" effect through the flooded tunnel that would easily breach the bulkheads, flooding the southbound running tunnel, and also the District line via the ventilation shaft.

....
Quote:
Work on the loop tunnel continued, with the plugging of the main breach being finished by Wedneday 6 November, the waterproofing of the disused passageway on the following day, and the construction of the new bulkhead some time after Tuesday 12 November.


(Sorry, for this interruption.)



I should have read it more carefully. However, I can't see that it affected any decision to allow access to the Tubes. That decision had been made pre-war, and reaffirmed in early 1940. The policy was changed on 21 September, long before repairs had been effected. There is no mention of any damage to the Tubes in the Cabinet minutes, or in any of Churchill's minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:53 pm 
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rhaan wrote:
Very interesting article.
Is that a Hudson in the first picture?


Avro Anson, Mk 1. Although designed as a light passenger aircraft, with later models used as a communications aircraft by the RAF, this in 1939-40 formed the mainstay of the Coastal Command fleet, rather improbably being used as a bomber and anti-submarine patrol/strike aircraft. There is no record of it ever having damaged a U-boat, although some German crew may have died laughing.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:18 pm 

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Are there any equivalent German records of the day to get the view from their side?


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:25 pm 

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Heart-affecting stuff, Dr. N. As I've said, mention of the Atlantic and its convoys remind me always of my father's 3 bad dousings. On the air war ... another relative gave part of his farm as an air base; the US flew aircraft from it. When I visited in the mid-50s, the runways and buildings were still there.

Immediately after the war, Pa always said we hadn't won a thing; he reckoned they did only what they must to stop it. "It's all over for us, this place is finished" he said - and left. Another naval warrior said the same to me again in the late 80s.

Oh God, it's awful.

I won't go onto the other thread... But that idiot Cameron can't get anything like his deserts, whatever they do to him.


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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:38 am 
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Hogsback wrote:
Are there any equivalent German records of the day to get the view from their side?


Yes ... very extensive.

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 Post subject: Re: A three pillar war
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:09 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm
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RAENORTH wrote:
rhaan wrote:
Very interesting article.
Is that a Hudson in the first picture?


Avro Anson, Mk 1. Although designed as a light passenger aircraft, with later models used as a communications aircraft by the RAF, this in 1939-40 formed the mainstay of the Coastal Command fleet, rather improbably being used as a bomber and anti-submarine patrol/strike aircraft. There is no record of it ever having damaged a U-boat, although some German crew may have died laughing.



Just like the Lockheed Hudson which was produced in big numbers for the RAF.
How many crated Hudson's have ended up on the bottom of the Atlantic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Hudson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRWQYuymGZ8

Thanks for the details about the Avro Anson Dr. North.


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