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 Post subject: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:53 pm 
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"Forty-nine per cent of voters would vote to get Britain out of Europe, as against just forty percent who prefer to stay in", says a Guardian/ICM poll - a nine-point lead. Yet, in July of this year, the Daily Mail was reporting a "huge lead" of 50 to 33 percent of the public wanting to leave the EU – a 17-point lead.

Thus, sentiment has dropped eight points in three months. And, as we pointed out in July, a poll in 1974 gave a lead of 18 points for withdrawal – 50 percent as against 32 percent. But, when the actual referendum came in 1975, 67.2 percent voted to stay in, while those voting to leave had fallen to 32.8 percent.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:34 pm
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It could be that one or both papers have employed pollsters who are economical with the fquestioning. I would never doubt the Guardian's willingness to engage in fraud and am not entirely willing to trust the Mail.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:11 pm 

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It is a complete pig in a poke. Eurodammerung is in its last act and whatever arises from the ashes will be very different to the EU that we discuss today.
No one knows what the EU will be by the time a referendum could be organized.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:32 pm 
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SandyRham wrote:
It is a complete pig in a poke. Eurodammerung is in its last act and whatever arises from the ashes will be very different to the EU that we discuss today.
No one knows what the EU will be by the time a referendum could be organized.


Absolutely the case ... and I take note that a referendum after the collapse of the euro might produce very different results to one carried out before.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm
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David Cameron Vows......
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... llion.html


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:27 pm
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Location: Oxford, UK
Sandy, although you are undoubtedly right that it will not be the same, do you think it will be democratic? Less bureaucratic? Honest about its aims? Ready to relinquish power over anything? We'll still need to leave. And yes, we'll still need to do a lot more to make things right, for ourselves, in our own way.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:52 pm
Posts: 542
So to give you the coming news.
Vote today finishes the referendum off for this Parliament. PDT_Armataz_01_10
EU collapses, markets collapse, banks...? in next few weeks or months. PDT_Armataz_01_23
EU insists it needs a stronger united centre. PDT_Armataz_01_34
Referendum no longer an option this Parliament. PDT_Armataz_01_02
EU with new powers decides UK no longer needs an elected as opposed to EU appointed Government....after all we have The EU Parliament. PDT_Armataz_02_11
Nikki Sinclaire made EU Ambassador to U.N. PDT_Armataz_01_23


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Jonathan wrote:
So to give you the coming news.
Vote today finishes the referendum off for this Parliament. PDT_Armataz_01_10
EU collapses, markets collapse, banks...? in next few weeks or months. PDT_Armataz_01_23
EU insists it needs a stronger united centre. PDT_Armataz_01_34
Referendum no longer an option this Parliament. PDT_Armataz_01_02
EU with new powers decides UK no longer needs an elected as opposed to EU appointed Government....after all we have The EU Parliament. PDT_Armataz_02_11
Nikki Sinclaire made EU Ambassador to U.N. PDT_Armataz_01_23



Seeing as none of the other EU member likes us as maybe the othes might vote to sling us out.

I know wishful thinking, but if the Sarkosky tiff with Cameron wasn't a set up perhaps the boy will make such a nuisance/prat of himself they'll say FO and take the UK with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:09 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 94
I am unconvinced that we would win (i.e. a vote for OUT not renegotiation) in any referendum. If we won I am unconvinced that this or any subsequent government involved in the negotiations over our exit would view this as binding. There are too many ways for them to weasel out and create difficulties for people which can be blamed on "not enough Europe in our lives". As one commentator (I forget who, apologies) pointed out a while ago, given how wedded our political class are to the concept of the EU, if it collapsed Britain might end up like Belarus, still clinging to the Soviet system long after the union has gone.

As Milton Friedman said; We need to create the political climate where the wrong people are forced to do the right thing.

One way of doing this might be to pick one particularly egregious example of Europlastic and put a huge effort into unseating him. No ethical campaigning and understanding the other persons point of view. Lies, smears, money to third parties as a spoiler. Dig into everything he's ever said or done and turn each and every u-turn and statement into an issue for somebody. This won't change things immediately but the knowledge that it can be done will be a useful bargaining chip. Our demands would be taken more seriously by the political class if we came to the table with one of their colleagues heads on a stick (metaphorically speaking obviously).


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:47 pm
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Location: Lytham St Annes, Lancashire, England
We are not to be allowed out of the EU so, apart from amusing ourselves after dinner, discussion on the non issue of a referendum is pointless. Of more importance to us is how we mobilise in defence of our country when armed foreign policemen and troops are patrolling our streets with little more than dislike of, if not outright hatred for, us in their hearts.

One of Today's front page headings proclaimed 'Police Acting Beyond The Law'. It used to be said of the Nazis and the Bolsheviks that 'it couldn't happen here'. It is happening here and the task facing all those who love liberty is to convince the lumpen proletariat that no one currently in authority has any interest in ensuring that it gets no worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
Posts: 6700
It all depends how it shatters. Both Berlusconi and Sarko have called Merkel a lardass which you don't do to woman who controls the only economy that can save you.
Merkel's IQ probably tops the other two conbined. PDT_Armataz_01_22
So I think Germany will have to do the Deutchmark thing.
But that is only sense and rational thinking simply doesn't seem to apply at that level.
Will it become more democratic? Nope, different languages, histories et al. make democracy at a European level impossible.
I don't think the elites will lose control quite yet, they need to do some panicked over-regulation to really scare people away from their x-boxes.
The EU riot police have already had an outing in Greece and I have high hopes that they will be the flame-thrower to set Europe alight.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 94
SandyRham wrote:
It all depends how it shatters. Both Berlusconi and Sarko have called Merkel a lardass which you don't do to woman who controls the only economy that can save you.
Merkel's IQ probably tops the other two conbined. PDT_Armataz_01_22
So I think Germany will have to do the Deutchmark thing.
But that is only sense and rational thinking simply doesn't seem to apply at that level.
Will it become more democratic? Nope, different languages, histories et al. make democracy at a European level impossible.
I don't think the elites will lose control quite yet, they need to do some panicked over-regulation to really scare people away from their x-boxes.
The EU riot police have already had an outing in Greece and I have high hopes that they will be the flame-thrower to set Europe alight.


I also think there will be a more directly authoritarian phase before things really go up, or fall apart. The problem is that the authoritarian phase could last a long while. The fact that it would inevitably collapse isn't much of a comfort if you've got a couple of decades of the EUSSR (for real this time) to look forward to.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:21 pm
Posts: 568
Location: Hampshire
I was directed to this You-tube item yesterday..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxMOW94V6xQ
It's about ESM in the EU...anyone any idea about this..?

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 1050
Although it is cheering that EUroscepticism is now main stream even about withdrawal , dont forget the ploy the EUrophiles used to use ie; that social groups A B and C are for being in and D & E are for out . Basically -winners in , losers out .


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:52 pm
Posts: 56
The reason for the drop in the 'out' vote in the opinion polls is the introduction of the 'renegotiation' red herring.

To the untrained ear (basically anyone who gets their opinions from the main-stream-media) this sounds an excellent compromise. Why cause a lots of grief by leaving the EU when you can just pick the bits you like and ignore the rest.

We all know thats bollocks and the only renegotiation that will go on is the scrapping of our few remaining opt outs but it'll fool enough people for a long enough time.

PDT_Armataz_01_19


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