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 Post subject: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Autonomous Mind brings us up-do-date with the latest instalment of europlastics' playtime.

Also having a serious go is Helen, over on Your Freedom and Ours. Perhaps Eustice should have looked at the fate of his namesake, taken from this 1940s cartoon in the Daily Mirror. It really is quite remarkable how this creature lives up to his alter ego.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:52 pm 

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Agreed, I have another reason for not wanting a referendum, I don't want any of the main political parties nor newspaper to take any 'Eurosceptic' credit for it should one happen. They all support membership (except the Express) so far better for the whole thing to collapse under its own contradictions leaving plenty of egg on faces. Given the Euro crisis this is most likely to be the outcome anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
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TheBoilingFrog wrote:
Agreed, I have another reason for not wanting a referendum, I don't want any of the main political parties nor newspaper to take any 'Eurosceptic' credit for it should one happen. They all support membership (except the Express) so far better for the whole thing to collapse under its own contradictions leaving plenty of egg on faces. Given the Euro crisis this is most likely to be the outcome anyway.


I dont care if they try , so long as we get out . The Mail and Telegraph are anti EU . Only the Mirror , Guardian , Indepedent and FT are for it , hardly great sellers .

The thing to consider is that the EU might not collapse . It might have difficulties for about four years , then be saved by increased prosperity - with lessons learned .


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:59 pm
Posts: 401
RAENORTH wrote -

Quote:
I used to think that way, but have latterly come to the conclusion that leaving the EU would in fact make very little difference to the way we are governed. In or out of the EU, I see our political élites behaving in exactly the same way.



Good point, but I think it goes beyond the political elite, of any stripe. Go back 30 years and in a typical street at election time there would be plenty of political posters on display. But as the behaviour of the political class has become worse so the public has backed away. Political party membership is at its lowest since WW2.

So as implied its all well and good leaving the EU, it would be ideal to rid ourselves of the idiots who now are elected too. But then what? If real politics is a bottom up as opposed to top down activity how do you woo the ordinary people out to vote? You would have to rebuild so much that has been lost. It goes beyond a sense of community too. As we all know in cities 'community' simply means ethnic origin now.


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 333
Robin wrote:
TheBoilingFrog wrote:
Agreed, I have another reason for not wanting a referendum, I don't want any of the main political parties nor newspaper to take any 'Eurosceptic' credit for it should one happen. They all support membership (except the Express) so far better for the whole thing to collapse under its own contradictions leaving plenty of egg on faces. Given the Euro crisis this is most likely to be the outcome anyway.


I dont care if they try , so long as we get out . The Mail and Telegraph are anti EU . Only the Mirror , Guardian , Indepedent and FT are for it , hardly great sellers .

The thing to consider is that the EU might not collapse . It might have difficulties for about four years , then be saved by increased prosperity - with lessons learned .


Ah those lessons learned. Whose lessons? What lessons? How about "We have learnt the lessons of all those anti-EU groups; therefore, we believe we are correct. Only we (Rompuy, Barosso, Ashton, Cameron etc) know what is best for the proles, errr I mean great EU population. We also thank Mr Cameron for taking the role of EU President on the retirement of President Rompuy; after almost having to give the stupid British people a vote on a referendum back in 2012. The major lesson we have learnt is that we will produce more rules/regulations and directives so that there is no chance the sub-state of the Greater European Union called Britain will no longer be anti-EU. It will be outlawed."


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
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Quote:
then be saved by increased prosperity

There can be no prosperity with the existing currencies and their associated debts.
Whatever arises from eurogeddon will be very different from the current set up.
So now we debate getting off the Titanic as the band plays 'Abide With Me'.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:37 pm
Posts: 91
I hope that the whipping works and that the motion is lost. Such a result will entrench the view that our "representatives" care nothing for the common will, because they are corrupt and interested only in their own careers. Resentment will continue to build, Parliament will be held in ever-deeper contempt (if that's possible) and the explosion, when it finally arrives, will be splendidly cataclysmic.
God rot the lot of them - but most of all Hague. And Cameron. And Clarke. And.......


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:54 am
Posts: 407
Location: Oxfordshire
Robin wrote:
TheBoilingFrog wrote:
Agreed, I have another reason for not wanting a referendum, I don't want any of the main political parties nor newspaper to take any 'Eurosceptic' credit for it should one happen. They all support membership (except the Express) so far better for the whole thing to collapse under its own contradictions leaving plenty of egg on faces. Given the Euro crisis this is most likely to be the outcome anyway.


I dont care if they try , so long as we get out . The Mail and Telegraph are anti EU . Only the Mirror , Guardian , Indepedent and FT are for it , hardly great sellers .

The thing to consider is that the EU might not collapse . It might have difficulties for about four years , then be saved by increased prosperity - with lessons learned .


The Telegraph and the Mail are not anti-EU, they both make it clear that they want us to remain members and would in the event of a referendum, campaign on that basis. The Mail only today has this editorial comment:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... te-EU.html

Quote:
The Mail does not support withdrawal from the EU, but doesn’t the current crisis offer a perfect opportunity to renegotiate our terms of membership?


Which effectively means they are pro-EU

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:10 pm 
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In2minds wrote:
RAENORTH wrote -

Quote:
I used to think that way, but have latterly come to the conclusion that leaving the EU would in fact make very little difference to the way we are governed. In or out of the EU, I see our political élites behaving in exactly the same way.



Good point, but I think it goes beyond the political elite, of any stripe. Go back 30 years and in a typical street at election time there would be plenty of political posters on display. But as the behaviour of the political class has become worse so the public has backed away. Political party membership is at its lowest since WW2.

So as implied its all well and good leaving the EU, it would be ideal to rid ourselves of the idiots who now are elected too. But then what? If real politics is a bottom up as opposed to top down activity how do you woo the ordinary people out to vote? You would have to rebuild so much that has been lost. It goes beyond a sense of community too. As we all know in cities 'community' simply means ethnic origin now.


It would be fair to say - as I have done several times - that people to do get worked up about issues over which they have not control. The converse also applies. If people feel that they can change things, they will participate. You do not have to woo them ... you are not trying to seduce them. You simply need to engineer a situation where they have to power to change things.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:55 pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I used to think that way, but have latterly come to the conclusion that leaving the EU would in fact make very little difference to the way we are governed. In or out of the EU, I see our political élites behaving in exactly the same way.




Exit from the EU is a precondition to fixing the problems not the be all and end all. You must start with the first step etc. etc.

A UK exit from the EU would set off seismic waves that would topple all sorts of edifices. Because all of the organizational / societal fault lines are not known or understood the results would be totally unpredictable. It is unlikely that the élites could continue to behave in the same way. Even if they tried it is unlikely that all of the other players would which would disrupt the élites agendas.

Get out, tear down the house, then get to work building something better. This is not a case for short attention spans. When the power vacuum is formed work to get the right stuff in.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:21 pm 
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AlanC wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used to think that way, but have latterly come to the conclusion that leaving the EU would in fact make very little difference to the way we are governed. In or out of the EU, I see our political élites behaving in exactly the same way.




Exit from the EU is a precondition to fixing the problems not the be all and end all. You must start with the first step etc. etc.

A UK exit from the EU would set off seismic waves that would topple all sorts of edifices. Because all of the organizational / societal fault lines are not known or understood the results would be totally unpredictable. It is unlikely that the élites could continue to behave in the same way. Even if they tried it is unlikely that all of the other players would which would disrupt the élites agendas.

Get out, tear down the house, then get to work building something better. This is not a case for short attention spans. When the power vacuum is formed work to get the right stuff in.


You can take that view ... but the post-exit conditions will depend on the circumstances and manner of our leaving. There is a range of possibilities, from the exit sparking a renaissance in British government, to not very much difference at all, to inestimably worse. However, when you tear things down, very often the result is worse than what you started with.

I think you would be very brave if you asserted that you knew what would happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
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Which is why we must decide on a post-EU structure now.
Unfortunately the present structure is built on vested interests living off 'government' and they'll fight tooth and nail to take everyone down with them.
I'm ashamed to say our morons couldn't initiate anything as seismic as leaving the EU.
I expect the Germans to leave the Euro taking the industrial north with them. If France is smart and stays with the tourist euro then they'll get the export advantage that Germany's used so well.
Comparisons with pre civil war USA??
Brussels will then polarize in the same way the Belgian nation has.
And our morons won't know which way to turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 1050
thespecialone wrote:
Ah those lessons learned. Whose lessons? What lessons? How about "We have learnt the lessons of all those anti-EU groups; therefore, we believe we are correct. Only we (Rompuy, Barosso, Ashton, Cameron etc) know what is best for the proles, errr I mean great EU population. We also thank Mr Cameron for taking the role of EU President on the retirement of President Rompuy; after almost having to give the stupid British people a vote on a referendum back in 2012. The major lesson we have learnt is that we will produce more rules/regulations and directives so that there is no chance the sub-state of the Greater European Union called Britain will no longer be anti-EU. It will be outlawed."

Might be something like that .


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 1050
AlanC wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used to think that way, but have latterly come to the conclusion that leaving the EU would in fact make very little difference to the way we are governed. In or out of the EU, I see our political élites behaving in exactly the same way.




Exit from the EU is a precondition to fixing the problems not the be all and end all. You must start with the first step etc. etc.

A UK exit from the EU would set off seismic waves that would topple all sorts of edifices. Because all of the organizational / societal fault lines are not known or understood the results would be totally unpredictable. It is unlikely that the élites could continue to behave in the same way. Even if they tried it is unlikely that all of the other players would which would disrupt the élites agendas.

Get out, tear down the house, then get to work building something better. This is not a case for short attention spans. When the power vacuum is formed work to get the right stuff in.


Agreed Alan C . The people are more likely to beleive they can affect the basic politics of the nation after a seismic shift of leaving the EU -something theyve been told was never going to happen - than nothing major happening before it .


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 Post subject: Re: Playtime
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 1050
TheBoilingFrog wrote:
Robin wrote:
TheBoilingFrog wrote:
Agreed, I have another reason for not wanting a referendum, I don't want any of the main political parties nor newspaper to take any 'Eurosceptic' credit for it should one happen. They all support membership (except the Express) so far better for the whole thing to collapse under its own contradictions leaving plenty of egg on faces. Given the Euro crisis this is most likely to be the outcome anyway.


I dont care if they try , so long as we get out . The Mail and Telegraph are anti EU . Only the Mirror , Guardian , Indepedent and FT are for it , hardly great sellers .

The thing to consider is that the EU might not collapse . It might have difficulties for about four years , then be saved by increased prosperity - with lessons learned .


The Telegraph and the Mail are not anti-EU, they both make it clear that they want us to remain members and would in the event of a referendum, campaign on that basis. The Mail only today has this editorial comment:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... te-EU.html

Quote:
The Mail does not support withdrawal from the EU, but doesn’t the current crisis offer a perfect opportunity to renegotiate our terms of membership?


Which effectively means they are pro-EU

Though not 100%
This means that they dont think the EU is going to collapse , but a bit of tinkering here and renogatiation there and it will get better .


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