The supremely irrelevant House of Commons is now planning to conduct a debate on whether there should be an EU referendum, supposedly on 27 October. I have made my views abundantly clear on this, but my erstwhile co-editor makes the points needed on this episode.

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Maybe nothing to get excited about - because the debate won't lead to anything. But if nothing else a referendum might actually vitalise the debate - it certainly did for us, although the subject was only limited to the euro membership. Also, if Britain by some divine miracle suddenly found itself outside the EU I would think it would be much easier to enact those changes that you argue for.

Your referendum, Mikgen, confirmed the trend in referendums: people usually vote to stay as they are. The Danes voted against adoption of the euro and to stick with the krone (the "W" designation on euro notes is apparently reserved for you; we have "J" reserved for us). An in-out referendum in the UK would also see people voting to stay as they are - but with rather less happy results. Best avoided, especially as the dice are loaded.

M - the only problem is that we are not going to see a "divine miracle" ... and while I'm all in favour of a debate, it has to be about the right things, with a clear outcome, otherwise it is just another sterile activity.

Looking at it realistically, therefore, I think we have to push for internal changes, build up a head of steam and then show people we cannot pursue them as long as we are within the EU. However, get rid of the EU without an alternative political paradigm and we risk replacing one set of political masters with another. We have to have a bottom-up revolution.

I'm under no illusion that the Govt will ensure that any vote that is held will be handsomely defeated; nor that the Govt would feel honour bound to act on a succesful motion.

But I find it hard to understand that a blog established precisely for the purpose of forcing a referendum on EU membership suddenly decides this is of no importance.

I understand the points you have been making over the past months and years about the whole political system being broken but I'd say we have more chance of a referendum on the EU than the massive reforms necessary to meet the goals of your Referism campaign. As a previous poster noted, we get out of the EU and the institutional reforms you have campaigned for might become easier to achieve.

It does seem odd that the blog that has led the argument for a referendum on the EU is now suggesting its campaigning focus has gone off at a tangent.

-- Iain

If we were to leave the EU, would Clegg no longer receive his MEP's pension ? Would the likes of Mandelson no longer be able to get EU Commissioner jobs ? And possibly most important, would faceless UK civil servants no longer be eligible for the Brussels gravy train ?

This blog was formed to force a vote on the EU Constitution (later trading as the Lisbon Treaty), not to campaign for an in-out vote on membership. Dr North knew better than anyone that a vote was needed and that it would be won if granted. The point comes back to the one about referendums being good for consolidating the status quo: Dr N knew that, however much pressure was applied by the elites, the population would vote against a new-fangled EU constitution, just as he knows that now the punters could be bullied into staying in the EU ("British jobs depend on free trade with EU", as a Tory MP said today).

Well it will have one important result, it will show yet again how hopelessly out of touch and moronically stupid all 3 main party's are.

All 3 leaders will trumpet the wondrous benefits of our membership, while out in the real world all that the EU touches crashes and burns. We as subjects will yet again wonder just what kind of weird parallel universe our politicians inhabit........and many tens of thousands more will decide they all have to go.

So bring it on you dolts, show us all just how epically stupid you all are.

This blog was established to fight the referendum on the Constitutional Treaty ... when it seemed a reality. It was not then our intention to go for an in/out referendum ... that was not on offer.

Any such referendum I would not regard as of "no importance". On a purely pragmatic level, I oppose it because I do not believe we could win one. WFW has the options for the debate ..

http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/201 ... stion.html

They will go for "C" ... which is never-never land ... the Wislon scam in the '75 referendum.

In terms of tactics, I go the other way around ... internal reform first ... which forces our withdrawal. I do not know how many times I'm going to have to say this ... but leave the EU without an alternative already in place and we could be no better off than we are now, and possibly worse off.

Mikgen referred to a Divine miracle. These are usually preceded by prayer.
I would prefer a National Day of Prayer (and Repentence) called by the Monarch and Prime Minister in Parliament rather than this Referendum. I think we held four in World War Two and several whenever urgent threats to the nation were identified - going back at least to the Spanish Armada.
Now that would be radical.

Pro EU Conservative Nadhim Zahawi MP vs UKIP Nigel Farage - 16 Oct 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu61IxoTJYc

Nikki Sinclair MEP has done well BUT there is real danger ahead because the arguments to leave the EU have NOT yet been made in any great detail.

If the British people had all been educated over say the last 12 years, by a strong growing relevant UKIP, about just how bad the EU was for the UK's health, then in any poll now I would now expect over 75% at least would be saying we should leave.

Nigel Farage and his corrupt cabal, who run EUKIP, should hang their heads in shame for they have done very little to 'help the people decide' (to borrow a line from the Referendum Party!)

Branches have had little support in terms of physical presence of MEPs and leaflets and many have simply withered on the vine along with a halving of the membership from a high of 30,000 in around 2006.

Meanwhile Nigel Farage and is cabal have enjoyed the high life in Brussels, taken part in the odd silly stunt and generally let the British people down.

We only have one chance to get this right and now is not the time as the British people could still be far to easily persuaded that our future lies in the EU.

Farage looked asleep half the time.

Revolutions seem the same .

You topple the emperorer/king/tyrant/dictatorship/ruling claque first , then you discuss the new make of the government .

Normal revolutions devour their children ... and you end up with situations you neither imagined nor wanted. Compare and contrast with the EU ... first they devised their government structures ... then they launched their slow-motion revolution. The most successful revolutions are the ones you don't notice.