"This is a political construction … this is a political project" says the EU commission representative. Cut to Peter Oborne delivering extruded verbal material. I don't know why so many people believe this was a bravura performance as he dismisses the claim that the euro is a political project - which it is - and pontificates about economics … about which he knows little.

Oborne is staking his reputation on the "guilty men" meme, but the comparisons are not appropriate, and the man is now coming over as a bore. I'll say it again – the real guilty men were and are the journalists like James Kirkup, Fraser Nelson and, yes, Peter Oborne - who kept EU issues out of the media, and played along with Cameron who sought to suppress discussion on the EU.

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who recently said he was in favour of the EU because it made it easier for his Swedish wife to settle here. This man is editor of Britain's "premier" "right-wing" political weekly.

Oborn. Quisling. Stage managed performance. Nuff said.

I like the opening credits, shades of "The Most Important Video You Will Ever Watch".

John.

I just want to put a marker down.

There was so much WRONG with that interview that a thorough fisking would take ages.

What a bunch of cnuts — the whole bloody lot of them.

The main point for me though was that at no stage did that shit-sucking Paxman question the in-your-face, brass-fcuking-neck, bald statement that the euro was a political project (with the unavoidable consequence that the EU was too, of course).

He was around when we had the '75 referendum on joining the Common Market with all the LYING assurances from the europhiliac side that it was just about trade blah blah blah... and that it would not affect us politically, and in particular that it was absolutely no threat whatsover to the sovereignty of this nation.

He could have made mincemeat of those eurobastards on that point. But no, he just let it all go smoothly by him.

As for Oborne, you're right — he's just another stupid preening fcukwit blustering tory stage actor. Mind you both of his opponents were as bad —with their precious little girly stands on having their non-existent dignity disrespected, especially that posturing turd from the FT. I have a boot for his throat, and for all of his kind. His 'dignity' would be the last thing he'd be concerned about if I had my way.

By the way, on what might be considered a pedantic point by some (but I don't think it is—I think it's important to be clear) I think Oborne was strictly correct in claiming that the euro is (now) an economic problem (as opposed to a political one) with the implication (mine, and his too, most likely) and that (mere) politics is not enough—or even anywhere near being the right 'tool'—for sorting this out. (Of course, the economic problem has big knock-on implications for the underlying politics but that's another thing.) But what he should have added is that the economic problem was itself CAUSED by the implementation of a nasty totalitarian political agenda in which democracy was traduced at every opportunity. In short, the root cause is political, but the immediate problem, i.e. the symptoms, are economic.

In writing those very odd articles praising Mr Cameron's personal qualities and acumen, Mr Oborne forfeited any claim to credibility and, with it, my esteem.
One imagines that he continues to do his masters' bidding.
It is important to them that there should appear to be disagreement, since the existence of disagreement implies choice -- a prerequisite for any election campaign if voters are to be gulled into engagement, and therefore an illusion carefully to be fostered.
And if there is to be Euroscepticism, it were best managed by those who would thwart it

Yes, that's about the size of it.

Yes ... you are right, and it is circular ... the economics feed back into politics, and so on. Arguably, politics is the management of economics - or the other way round.

A Martian watching that tosh would have thought that the bailouts weren't expressly forbidden by the treaties, and would not have been put right by Mr Obore or the other europhiles.

Obore must have thought it impolite to mention, among other things, the Tories' "Eurozone Financial Assistance Bill" from May ("The majority of MPs voted to dilute the strength of the UK's opposition to bailouts by the EU of member countries in financial trouble.")

Those bailouts steal from UK taxpayers. Obore's friend Dave is, therefore, guiltier than anyone because he is propping up the currency despite everything that everyone now knows (and many people have always known).

I watched the Oborne debate and was not impressed by him, however perhaps you are missing a bigger point. The bigger point is that the hatred against the EU elite is becoming visceral, and this is new on the MSM. The EU chap left the room because he could not stand up for himself. Oborne was inarticulate, but he made a very big point that we, large sections of the public and MSM (at last) have no time for these people and we are not respecting them at all.

A much more articulate debate took place on Moral Maze R4 A German really cut Mathew Taylor to pieces, Taylor was trying to insinuate that German public has a moral obligation to be compassionate towards the Greeks, and being pro-EU was to be compassionate, to be anti-EU was to be anti-compassionate. The tables were completely turned on Mathew Taylor

Another example was on Newsnight when one interviewee called the Euro "a bankruptcy making machine"

It used to be that to be anti-EU was to be a little Englander, now the boot in on the other foot, to be pro EU is to be part of a nasty conspiracy against the people. This is the big message of last night's debate on Newsnight.

Julian,

Thanks for the steer on the Moral Maze. Normally I avoid that beeboid crap like the plague. It winds me up too much. (Melanie Phillips is generally good value though, when she's on. I only ever listen in the car.)

Incidentally, I too thought the German prof was ace. So was the New Zealander.

At about 10:45 minutes into the programme we get alien hideoid Keenan Malik the Mad Malicious Moralising Muslime:

"[Rudely interrupting the German prof] Yeah, let's let's let's turn ... let's turn ... the question slightly differently... let's turn the issue slightly differently ... luh luh luh look ... muh more ... closely at this MORAL issue ... uhm ... German taxpayers are ... uh ... of course OPPOSED to the bailout. DO YOU THINK that the MORAL STANCE of Germany should be ... uh ... predicated on the views of ... uh ... the German taxpayers? Is is is ... that the basis of of of ... deciding whether something's right or wrong?"

The expectation on Malice's part here is clearly that of course, AS EVERYONE WITH ANY MORAL COMPASS WOULD AGREE, it is utterly ridiculous for mere ordinary white people (filthy taxpayers no less, and possibly especially those nasty Nazi German taxpayers) to decide such important matters.

It's very clear what democratic credentials mean to that carcinogenic alien. Viz nothing.

Incidentally, note all the thoroughy irritating voluble hestitations he threw out to prevent interruption while he was himself interrupting and trying to formulate his his his uh uh uh dumbarse question. Debating technique man. Never let your opponent get a word in.

That other preening bliar-advising bullying tosser [Taylor?] was as bad when he tried to pin the German prof down by interrupting him and demanding, "Just answer the question." But the stupid frigging question was based on a stupid frigging false premise. Nasty dumphuck nu-socialist zealot.

As for the windbag cleric, what ELSE can one expect but homeopathic levels of actual content further diluted by the purest of pure windbaggery. Asked to resolve any ACTUAL 'moral' dilemma, all these bloated, parasitic, floating turds can do is respond vacuously with their formulaic, "Well, yes, one can certainly ask some very sharp questions indeed about blah blah blah...more blah blah blah... and nothing but blah blah blah...." But answer the fcuking question, and actually state something that might remotely purport to have any actual direct application in actual ffffkng practice? Fcuk off, no way ("It would entail some logical COMMITMENTS and that would be the end of me and my fluffy-bunny vaguery").

By the way, this programme exemplifies just why I loathe moralisers so deeply. They are so convinced that their own moral view is the only one that any reasonable person could hold that they feel completely assured in their holy (usually secular holy these days) righteousness in thoroughly condemning any gainsayer. But what do they base it on — their moral insight, that is? Some half-arsed version of non-existent bozo platonic truth, and THEIR version too, naturally, that's what. In fact, whatever suits THEIR purpose.

You can forget all that any of those windbagging philosophers down through history has ever had to say on morals. There's is no basis for morality other than the deals people strike with each other. That's it. That's all one needs to know.

I hope that isn't too dogmatic. Ha ha.

BTW, hence the need for democracy, the ultimate in deal making. The people may be crap, and the deals may be crap. But that's the best you're ever going to get; anything else and you'll do a lot worse. Real life can be so hard.



P.S. It tells one almost all one needs to know about al beeb that the subject under discussion was given the 'moral' treatment. They're nothing without their 'morals', that lot. But they're even less with them. Losers.

I want out of the EU and I want it as painlessly as possible .
If this means rejoicing over the repenters and welcoming their conversion then Ill take that any day . I dont want anyone to feel trapped into a pro EU stance because if they change their mind there`s a chorus of Where Were You In .... or But You Said .....
A list has been made out before of the numerous reasons that people become EUrosceptic , some in contradiction of others . We cant have every single person who now wants out (and the future ones ) to only want out for what you , I or any other poster here considers is the one true real reason to be EUrosceptic .

Open new fronts , use pinpricks against the beast , Climb Every Mountain , lets win .

Yes. With my rational hat on I see that as a wise approach, especially when winning is all, as it is — compromises have to be made to strike deals.

It's little like the treatment of (former) Nazis after WWII. Most were just welcomed back into the fold. But the ringleaders got to feel the noose.

So I would make an exception for the ringleaders here too. The same goes for the ringleaders in flooding the country with unwanted aliens — no amnesty.

The last thing it's going to be is painless whilst the rats fight in the sack? The pain will be worth it in the end!