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 Post subject: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:09 am 
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As the situation in Greece comes to a head, Purple Scorpion is not impressed with the Greek protesters in Constitution Square. Rather than the start of a revolution against corrupt politicians, he ventures that we have "spoiled children" at play, imbued with an over-developed sense of entitlement.

With The Guardian weighing in to support them, one is inclined to agree, although I would like to think that we have both dynamics at play. And if the front ranks are spoiled children with their hands out for more (of our) money, well ... as was remarked recently by an anonymous cynic, someone has to soak up the bullets before the hard men get down to work.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:02 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:32 am
Posts: 117
While I can understand some of the reasoning of the protests - in Spain, for example, I can understand why young people aren't best pleased with youth unemployment running at 50% - in Greece I really have no idea what the protestors want other than a guess that it's, as the post says, more money on easier terms.

Do they want to be able to retire at 55 on a pension approaching their final pay packet? If so, then they will be sadly disappointed. I imagine most people in the world would like that but economics don't allow it (political class excepted).

If they are protesting at being shackled to the Euro, EU regulations and being governed by a distant government which are stifling their economy then that's a different story.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:45 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 94
The more I think about Greece the more sympathetic I am to the protesters. They are angry about the loss of their standard of living and that's something I think most people could identify with (especially in these times).

That they have no clear understanding that their standard of living is economically unsustainable, even without the corruption, is not surprising. They have been fed a steady diet of lies by the same corrupt officials and politicians for years. When something goes wrong different interest groups point the finger of blame at corrupt big business and robber barons who should pay their taxes, the evil IMF working on behalf of the "international banking cartel" and shady dealings by self serving politicians as the cause of their woes. Maybe there's a bit of truth in some or all of these. After all, a little truth makes a big lie more convincing. If you're fed a diet of lies for so long you no longer know what the truth tastes like.

That the protesters can't clearly define what the problem is, as opposed to who is causing their immediate pain, is hardly their fault. If, more likely when, these problems migrate to the UK I don't expect the inevitable mass demonstrations to be any better targeted than those in Greece.

If you've lived a certain way with certain expectations for a standard of living and a comfortable retirement and that rug gets pulled out from under you you're going to be angry. The worry is it's the political left with their transnational ambitions who have historically been better at harnessing anger and discontent and it may be groups from the left who emerge from the coming turmoil in positions of power.

What can be done? I suspect those engaged in the Independent Political Blogging movement are already doing it. Get some facts, or at least better interpretations of facts, out there to prevent the sheeple being herded in a dangerous direction. Open some eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
Seems what's happening is that the world that the Bubbles thought they lived in was a mirage. They were promised utopia inside the EU/Zero and for a while it all looked true....now, just like everything that the EU creates or touches it has quickly turned into a nonstop nightmare.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 1:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 1384
Quote:
What one can observe from all of this, therefore, is that we need to be better informed of events which threaten to have profound repercussions, the nature of which we only dimly understand. If there is to be a revolution, we need to know which side to cheer.


What would satisfy these protesters is an assurance that the unsustainable state of affairs that obtained until recently was going to continue. I'm sure there are all sorts of problems with corrupt politicians etc., which are coming to the fore now, but it seems that the real complaint is that their expectations have changed.

We're seeing some tangible signs of the break up of the EU as we've known it. The forces attempting to hold it together are ones we are familiar with. The forces in Greece prying it apart don't necessarily share any motivations in common with those opposed to the EU in the UK. They're probably not even consciously trying to pry it apart.

This mess and the associated messes with the rest of Club Med are definitely going to cause us pain in the UK, in the short term at least, and it's pain which in part has been made worse with the compliance of the UK government with the EU Project.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:25 pm
Posts: 1032
It is common knowledge that our old friends Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government hide some of its debts with credit swaps on future currencies,all legal I am sure,but basically putting off the day of reckoning.

These swaps seem ever present in our financial world now,they seem everywhere.Not sure anyone reallly understands them(except maybe Bagua),but they are sitting time time bombs waiting to go off.There should be alot of folk in jail.Those who have made lots of fees hawking these deals around.Its a money merry go round.

There is something very unpleasant about taking out 3rd party default swaps or insurance on suspect institutions or governmnets,its more or less insider trading.For the life of me I cant understand how they are allowed,its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
Quote:
its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


Exactly...... except the sellers don't even bother to provide for the risk, which is why they are crapping themselves over the prospect of Bubble defaults, that trigger not only Bubble CDS's, but then trigger CDS's on the issuers, which cause further mayhem and could trigger defaults in other PIIGS.

All so 22 yr olds can drive around in Lamborginis.....


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:21 pm 
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FU (Fed Up) wrote:
Quote:
its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


Exactly...... except the sellers don't even bother to provide for the risk, which is why they are crapping themselves over the prospect of Bubble defaults, that trigger not only Bubble CDS's, but then trigger CDS's on the issuers, which cause further mayhem and could trigger defaults in other PIIGS.

All so 22 yr olds can drive around in Lamborginis.....




My head hurts.

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We are a satellite state of the Greater European Empire, ruled by a supreme government in Brussels. We owe this government neither loyalty nor obedience. It is not our government. It is theirs. It is our enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 1384
FU (Fed Up) wrote:
Quote:
its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


Exactly...... except the sellers don't even bother to provide for the risk, which is why they are crapping themselves over the prospect of Bubble defaults, that trigger not only Bubble CDS's, but then trigger CDS's on the issuers, which cause further mayhem and could trigger defaults in other PIIGS.

All so 22 yr olds can drive around in Lamborginis.....


So this doesn't work at all like insurance where the risk can be quantified, likely risks can be covered, and even very unlikely risks like having all 500 oil tankers on your books lost in a single week, can be covered by re-insurance. They're basically taking money to give people an unjustified reassurance that the risks associated with dodgy investments have been offset, when they can't be. Essentially fraud.

The nature of the risks is also different from insuring an oil tanker, or someone driving a car for a year.

22year olds driving Lamboughinis suggests that a lot of dodgy salesmanship is necessarily involved in peddling these products.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:25 pm
Posts: 1032
FU (Fed Up) wrote:
Quote:
its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


Exactly...... except the sellers don't even bother to provide for the risk, which is why they are crapping themselves over the prospect of Bubble defaults, that trigger not only Bubble CDS's, but then trigger CDS's on the issuers, which cause further mayhem and could trigger defaults in other PIIGS.

All so 22 yr olds can drive around in Lamborginis.....


What I understand is that you can take a CDS on almost anyone or any organisation even if you have no official interest in that party whatsoever,although in effect you do have an interest, a malignant one.

Surely any sane legal regulatory system would outlaw this.You must have some interest in that other party like a counter risk or exposure.But it seems issuers of these swaps are happy to sell off the peg packages to anyone that wants one ...no questions asked.

Its akin to 2 guys betting on 2 insects climbing up a wall.


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 Post subject: Re: Beware of Greek politics
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:25 pm
Posts: 1032
RAENORTH wrote:
FU (Fed Up) wrote:
Quote:
its like taking out an insurance policy on a stranger and then paying someone to bump them off.


Exactly...... except the sellers don't even bother to provide for the risk, which is why they are crapping themselves over the prospect of Bubble defaults, that trigger not only Bubble CDS's, but then trigger CDS's on the issuers, which cause further mayhem and could trigger defaults in other PIIGS.

All so 22 yr olds can drive around in Lamborginis.....




My head hurts.


This might help a bit,its all perfectly legal of course.I need to take a shower PDT_Armataz_01_02

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 34,00.html


Quote:
But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer..............Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005.







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