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 Post subject: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Actually, it died a long time ago - as a worthwhile campaigning tool. The momentum kept it going, but it no longer achieves anything of value, while its overall effect is to damage the cause.

Such has long been my conclusion, but this is now confirmed in spades by sight of David Campbell-Bannerman's more detailed reasons for leaving UKIP. I have no time whatsoever for the man but, nevertheless, much of what he writes - and the frustrations he experienced - I recognise. His words bring back vividly the utter impossibility of working in a political party dominated by the destructive and dangerous Nigel Farage.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:10 pm 
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I've had suspicions about NF for years. UKIP is a useful dead end in which to 'kettle' the Eurosceptic vote.


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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:17 pm 
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And yet, to the majority of the UKIP voting public, Farage is a great oratator and someone who takes the attack to the EU. In much the same way that Griffin has killed the BNP, Farage is doing the same to UKIP. We are soon to be left with no viable alternative to the LibLabCon.

Too many of these MEPs seem to go native and enjoy the money and perks of the job, which I suspect is the reason why the EU is so generous with the package.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Jazz606 wrote:
I've had suspicions about NF for years. UKIP is a useful dead end in which to 'kettle' the Eurosceptic vote.


That is the net effect ... I do not for the minute believe that this is the intention. On and off, I spent four years sitting at a desk opposite from Farage, and worked and socialised with him under the most stressful conditions. If he was a "sleeper", place to destroy the eurosceptic movement, then he has undergone a degree of brainwashing that even the Manchurian candidate could not match - so well is it hidden. Rather, I think it is an underlying character flaw in Farage, combined - I'm afraid to say - with the inability of party members to think through the causes of their lack of success.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:20 pm 

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Dismantling UKIP or the Farage cabal is long overdue and good luck if you can achieve it. The reason he is still there is largely due to the fact that most people who joined UKIP did so with positive aims only to have their best ideas crushed, ignored and disregarded. They lacked the stomach to stay in the party simply to fight the cabal and left disillusioned. The party did not grow or improve but the lack of genuine alternatives to the 'elite' means that it does not die either. So it is an important obstacle to euroscepticism and potentially to referism or any other right-thinking political movement down the road. In Kilroy's words we need to 'kill it'. After that we can get started on the Tories too. PDT_Armataz_02_11

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:23 pm 

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Location: Lytham St Annes, Lancashire, England
As entertaining as Mr Farage can be, he seems, ultimately, to be just another politico on the make. Unfortunately, he and his ilk thrive in the dung heap because most of us have far better things to do than turn to and aerate the muck, bringing some of the vermicular life forms into the light, which is what popular involvement in politics requires, and is effectively about.

Sadly there aren't sufficient free thinking politically aware yet politically disinterested and politically unambitious individuals in a country of sixty one million people to organise the newsletters, public meetings, campaigns, petitions, letter writing and door-stepping necessary to keep the pigs from gorging on the swill.

A dozen or so committed individuals in every constituency could force a change for the better, or provoke the swines into passing yet more illiberal laws. It won't happen though.


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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:23 pm 
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RoadHog wrote:
And yet, to the majority of the UKIP voting public, Farage is a great oratator and someone who takes the attack to the EU. In much the same way that Griffin has killed the BNP, Farage is doing the same to UKIP. We are soon to be left with no viable alternative to the LibLabCon.

Too many of these MEPs seem to go native and enjoy the money and perks of the job, which I suspect is the reason why the EU is so generous with the package.



There is always an alternative ... but I do not think a political party is one. Political parties are poor vehicles for achieving change ... invariably the great movements come from outside the established political system. UKIP, to that extent, is a dead end. Most of its energies are devoted to seeking electoral success and even that it does badly. Next to nothing of its energy is devoted to the cause.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:24 pm 

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In a world where facts no longer count we have to start with the content of our educational system.
As Sowell stated in his interview I have posted at your Sowell post, 10 year olds are brainwashed with current political subjects form climate change to the use of nuclear energy. In the US these kids are writing letters to the Government turning the country in an idiocracy. In Germany today the freshly brainwashed teenagers are now aloud to vote at the age of sixteen!

The non fact based indoctrination continues in our media, our advertising and the relentless flood of government propaganda has resulted in a devastating election result in germany where the fear for nuclear power and the Fukashima disaster have brought the Greens into power..

And those protesting in Madrid call for a "World Revolution" thus furthering the Globalist agenda.
The establishment has turned the masses in a useful tool providing them with the opportunity to further reduce our civil rights.

How can we bring sanity to this mad house?

Really, the number of 'thinking" people is in decline, a fact based discussion is almost impossible as the man in the street is driven by fear, slogans and half truth's.

IMO turning the tide is an almost impossible task.


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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:26 pm 
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WilliamGruff wrote:
As entertaining as Mr Farage can be, he seems, ultimately, to be just another politico on the make. Unfortunately, he and his ilk thrive in the dung heap because most of us have far better things to do than turn to and aerate the muck, bringing some of the vermicular life forms into the light, which is what popular involvement in politics requires, and is effectively about.

Sadly there aren't sufficient free thinking politically aware yet politically disinterested and politically unambitious individuals in a country of sixty one million people to organise the newsletters, public meetings, campaigns, petitions, letter writing and door-stepping necessary to keep the pigs from gorging on the swill.

A dozen or so committed individuals in every constituency could force a change for the better, or provoke the swines into passing yet more illiberal laws. It won't happen though.


Possibly - just possibly - you are too constrained in your thinking. There are something close to 6,000 unique visitors to this blog every day. We have an ongoing (virtual) meeting ...

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:27 pm 
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rhaan wrote:
IMO turning the tide is an almost impossible task.


We have a blog ... and a forum ... it's your forum ... make it grow.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:58 pm
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Unfortunately this seems to be the case with "eurosceptic" movements in several other countries as well -- dead-end movements made to make eurosceptics waste their time and their votes, as another poster pointed out. Most often when you take a closer look at the programmes of these parties, you are left to wonder if the people who wrote them had an ounce of gray matter in those skulls of theirs. They don't even have a viable plan to leave the EU (has Farage or any of the Faragites ever mentioned Article 50 TEU in one of their public appearances?) let alone what they'd do after leaving it. Same with the much-hyped Marine Le Pen is mightier than Le Sarko -- her party just muses on about "leaving the euro but not the EU", which is legally impossible...


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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:46 pm 
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I have just read Campbell-Bannerman's dissertation on why he thinks UKIP is going backwards, and it is crap...

What it really contains is the witterings of a Tory, who thought he could jump ship from the Tories, because he couldn't make it there and try and turn UKIP into a mini Tory party. Now that he has failed at that, he has wandered off back to the Tory party to be non-descript and boring there.

However, he has really delivered a kick to the people that backed him and supported him in his campaign to represent UKIP as an MEP, first by criticising their efforts (which were successful) and then by failing to resign now that he has defected.

Let me think now... What would someone do if they wanted to be involved in getting the UK out of the EU? I can think of lots of things, but certainly joining the Tory party would not be one of them.

Like him or loathe him, Nigel has got things right... as you yourself have pointed out Richard, it is all about the idea... Referism... EU realism... ism this and ism that... ism it a shame. You can't kill the idea.

UKIP IS a pressure group... But unusually for this concept, it seeks peoples votes, and this it is doing in increasing numbers... Campbell-Bannerman has been sending UKIP way off course for a long time now with his policies and his attempt to turn UKIP into the fourth political party. If it had been successful, it would have had some MP's by now... Why should people trust a fourth party any more than they trust the other three... A sort of UKLIBLABCON? At the London hustings during the last leadership campaign, his performance was more effective than mogadon... He was wittering on about AV+ for God's sake... Something that was never on any agenda, except his.

I want to hear two messages from UKIP:

1) Get out of the EU...

2) Get citizen triggered binding direct democracy for the people of the UK.

Those two things, which incidentally, cover your "referism" idea, would fundamentally change OUR relationship with government and you can't get number 2 without first getting number 1.



(Just posting this and noticed that JWGuest writes that "most people who joined UKIP did so with positive aims only to have their best ideas crushed, ignored and disregarded...", marvellous if true... Unfortunately for his argument, far more people are joining UKIP than leaving it. Particularly those that are the future.)


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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:50 pm 
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rhaan wrote:
...fear for nuclear power and the Fukashima disaster have brought the Greens into power...

IMO turning the tide is an almost impossible task.


Perhaps one cannot turn the tide by an act of will. It turns on its own. One can, perhaps, dredge and manage the channels in which it flows. Most of us have grown allergic to repeated calls of, "The Sky is falling." Firstly, there is no joy in hearing such messages. Secondly, when the sky remains firmly infixed, there eventually arises a degree of skepticism about such claims. Actually, and perversely, those attempting to raise the rates we pay for electricity will ultimately succeed in turning the tide: sure 'nough (please permit me an Americanism).

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:26 am
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Stephen Jenner wrote:
I have just read Campbell-Bannerman's dissertation on why he thinks UKIP is going backwards, and it is crap...

What it really contains is the witterings of a Tory, who thought he could jump ship from the Tories, because he couldn't make it there and try and turn UKIP into a mini Tory party. Now that he has failed at that, he has wandered off back to the Tory party to be non-descript and boring there.

However, he has really delivered a kick to the people that backed him and supported him in his campaign to represent UKIP as an MEP, first by criticising their efforts (which were successful) and then by failing to resign now that he has defected.

Let me think now... What would someone do if they wanted to be involved in getting the UK out of the EU? I can think of lots of things, but certainly joining the Tory party would not be one of them.

Like him or loathe him, Nigel has got things right... as you yourself have pointed out Richard, it is all about the idea... Referism... EU realism... ism this and ism that... ism it a shame. You can't kill the idea.

UKIP IS a pressure group... But unusually for this concept, it seeks peoples votes, and this it is doing in increasing numbers... Campbell-Bannerman has been sending UKIP way off course for a long time now with his policies and his attempt to turn UKIP into the fourth political party. If it had been successful, it would have had some MP's by now... Why should people trust a fourth party any more than they trust the other three... A sort of UKLIBLABCON? At the London hustings during the last leadership campaign, his performance was more effective than mogadon... He was wittering on about AV+ for God's sake... Something that was never on any agenda, except his.

I want to hear two messages from UKIP:

1) Get out of the EU...

2) Get citizen triggered binding direct democracy for the people of the UK.

Those two things, which incidentally, cover your "referism" idea, would fundamentally change OUR relationship with government and you can't get number 2 without first getting number 1.



(Just posting this and noticed that JWGuest writes that "most people who joined UKIP did so with positive aims only to have their best ideas crushed, ignored and disregarded...", marvellous if true... Unfortunately for his argument, far more people are joining UKIP than leaving it. Particularly those that are the future.)


Obviously could not disagree more. DCB was, is and always will be a wet, which is why he has joined the Tories. He is however right that there is no plan in UKIP to achieve its long-term aims. Its plan consists of growing membership and building a pot of money to get as many MEPs elected as it can, not realising that no one outside the bubble could care less about the Euros. Then comes the general election and epic failure, splits, rifts and leadership changes ensue (two choices - Farage on the throne or Farage behind the throne). The bright, enthusiastic new members piss off in disgust.

And if UKIP is a pressure group - why does it waste its member's money and effort on standing in elections it cannot win? There are other ways of gaining political influence and a voice and many of them are more effective in this era of mass disillusionment with conventional politics as Dr North has pointed out. UKIP standing to fail in every General Election has the same effect as the 'March against the debt' - it shows the establishment and the eco-socialists that we are weak and that they can ignore us with impunity. If UKIP is a party then it has to act like one - it has to contest elections on the full range of policies which influence the way people vote. Time and again it has been shown that EU issues are low down the public list of priorities at General Elections and that UKIP is a sidelined irrelevance. A superior medium for educating people about the EU has to be found.

Like most Eurosceptics you over-emphasise the talents of Farage simply because he says things you like to hear. The mark of a really good orator is to change minds and to impress even those who abjectly disagree. Farage simply preaches very effectively to the choir. People who don't agree with his basic points find him invariably irritating or slimy.

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 Post subject: Re: The death of UKIP
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:32 am
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Interesting thread, looking forward to reading more.


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