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 Post subject: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:13 pm 
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It was all going to be different under the Tories, wasn't it? All these procurement messes, like the Nimrod, the Eurofighter, the Type 42, the A400-M, the Chinook. They were all Labour cock-ups ... except that they we all initiated by the Tories.

Now that Labour have returned the compliment, and saddled the Tory administration with a seaborne version of the Eurofighter, doubtless the Tories will be complaining bitterly about new price-hike for the new carriers for the Royal Navy, now that we learn from diverse sources that the makers have just added another £1 billion to the price.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:03 pm
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It really doesn't make the slightest difference which party 'holds office' except for the level of individual incompetence on the part of the members. Stating the obvious again and the only solution I can see is the utter destruction of the entire political class... or maybe a collective ignorance of the political classes machinations.

They really are like children and do not like being ignored so perhaps the best solution is simple ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:08 pm
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I suppose it's embarrassing .... but that really doesn't cover it does it? It would seem that the only thing missing from the proposed MOD aircraft carriers is a white paint scheme and a nice set of tusks.

I'd bet the Yanks would leap at the chance to flog us a Gerald Ford class item - probably at a steep discount given their present cash flow problems.

But the useless, expensive oxygen thieves at BAE-MOD plc have other ideas... and the twerps in Parliament and the meeja go along.

Destroyers with no proven missiles, jets that can't drop bombs ... phew, what a mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:50 pm 
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WilliamF wrote:
It really doesn't make the slightest difference which party 'holds office' except for the level of individual incompetence on the part of the members. Stating the obvious again and the only solution I can see is the utter destruction of the entire political class... or maybe a collective ignorance of the political classes machinations.

They really are like children and do not like being ignored so perhaps the best solution is simple ignorance.


That's like giving a baby a box of matches and a can of petrol.

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm
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The entire political establishment in Europe is as rotten as can be.

Their agenda's are so far away from reality that we are left with only a single choice.

It's them or us.


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:03 pm
Posts: 194
RAENORTH wrote:
WilliamF wrote:
It really doesn't make the slightest difference which party 'holds office' except for the level of individual incompetence on the part of the members. Stating the obvious again and the only solution I can see is the utter destruction of the entire political class... or maybe a collective ignorance of the political classes machinations.

They really are like children and do not like being ignored so perhaps the best solution is simple ignorance.


That's like giving a baby a box of matches and a can of petrol.


Que Sera Sera.

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 80
I have a customer who does work for consortium building the carrier, I spoke to him a few months ago (when the link up with the french was announced) , you are correct that the changes are to accommodate the French planes (euro navy carrier?).
One of the major costs was that this new equipment interferes with the radar / control towers (due to their existing placement) so that all had to be redesigned adding to the increased cost.
Keeps people in work I suppose:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:47 pm
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Location: Lytham St Annes, Lancashire, England
A very thought provoking article Dr North, and one that no single comment could address properly. There's certainly an essay - and more - in it. The politicians are ultimately responsible but really the problem is that they simply aren't capable of being responsible, nor are the civil servants. As with so much that government does, we expect, and need, political accountability without the inept interference that is political control. How do we achieve that? It's not a new problem.

Are you, by any chance, thinking of a writing a history of British defence management and procurement, say from 1801 - 2011, and beyond?


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:41 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:04 am
Posts: 740
Location: Cheshire
I don't see any big problem here, certainly not by the malign standards of British defence procurement. The decision was made to fit the carriers with catapults and arrestor gear. This was always going to cost about £500 million per ship. I think it's the right idea, building 65,000 ton carriers and then saddling them with unproven STOVL aircraft never made sense to me. Mind you, I would not go for the F35C either. God knows what it will end up costing. I'm sure you could buy a shedload of F18s at a fraction of the cost, add a few Hawkeyes and bugger the RAF. Won't happen of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:30 am
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Location: Traveling again.
Going back in time to WW2 the famous 'Liberty Ships' of which the "Robert E. Peary" was built in 4 days and 15 hours, they were originally designed by British Naval Architects, of the 2000 plus that were built ( in America by women ) 2 still exist today.

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 1862
I seem to recall the original estimate began with a 4 not a 5 so is another cost increase or the one Brown instigated by delaying the in service date?

Would anyone in power have balked at the thought of 2 carriers costing what 2 carriers cost the US to build, if they had estimated them to cost that when the project was started? Grown-ups wouldn't because it would be a rational estimate that everyone could work with. Instead we have a succession of jokers who not only allow impossibly low estimates to become media currency knowing that the final cost will be much more, but have further aimed to reduce the capabilities by mothballing one carrier straight away.


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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:26 am
Posts: 61
Everything the MoD does is penny-wise and pound-foolish - everything big is delayed due to budget problems, rather than biting the bullet and accepting that this years budget might be a bit out but next years can be cut back a little to compensate, they push the costs back into future years. I don't think they have heard of 'inflation' probably because their own salaries keep up with it so generously. Unlike designing a product at the beginning like any normal company and then testing it making any necessary changes and then putting it into production, they start to build it and then add to the design as they go along: changing the function, gold-plating here and there, lots of expensive re-design work for the defence companies they will no doubt go on to work for when they take early retirement!

I don't think there are any solutions short of violent revolt any more.

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 Post subject: Re: Another fine mess
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:47 pm
Posts: 489
Location: Lytham St Annes, Lancashire, England
nottoobrite wrote:
Going back in time to WW2 the famous 'Liberty Ships' of which the "Robert E. Peary" was built in 4 days and 15 hours, they were originally designed by British Naval Architects, of the 2000 plus that were built ( in America by women ) 2 still exist today.

Were those naval architects British or English?


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