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 Post subject: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:59 am 
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Location: Bradford
If ever there was an insane concept, it is the Nissan leaf, which needed a subsidy of £5,000 to make it just twice as expensive as a conventional, better-performing equivalent. So what do they do? They vote it European Car of the Year, with 257 votes from the 58 judges across 23 European countries.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:08 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 1862
I'll bet cold weather hits the performance a bit, and, that plenty of rare earth elements went into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:05 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:05 pm
Posts: 288
Did the Soviet Union make the Lada car of the year?


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:15 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:42 am
Posts: 412
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Jeremy Clarkson - comments please!


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:18 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:42 am
Posts: 412
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
gareth wrote:
I'll bet cold weather hits the performance a bit, and, that plenty of rare earth elements went into it.


On the subject of rare earths, Matt Ridley has some observations on the stuff that goes into wind turbines, namely neodymium for magnets

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/coming-dash-gas


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:47 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:32 am
Posts: 117
The £5k is the direct subsidy, our taxes will no doubt subsidise the production of this car indirectly too. I heard a snippet a couple of weeks ago about the cars that some US department was buying and it had increased to 23% hybrids from virtually nothing in the last couple of years. You can rest assured that our government departments, who have no moral compunction about wasting vast amounts of other peoples money (indeed, the ability to waste money seems to be a prerequisite), will be snapping these up like hot cakes to show off their 'green' credentials and trot out the tractor stats about how much their department has managed to cut it's CO2 emissions.

No sensible person would ever buy such a vehicle with their own money.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:14 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:00 pm
Posts: 635
Can I just point out that the last car I tested - for my motoring column in a national countryside magazine - was the Aston Martin Rapide? I think I managed 11 mpg. Yummy.

Somehow I don't think I'll make it onto the ECotY jury!

[Snow just started in central Hampshire.]

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 Post subject: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:25 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:32 am
Posts: 824
Location: Tasmania
As a transport convenience, small cars like these are useless. No range, no guts, & too small to carry any reasonable amount of luggage. Here in northern Tasmania small cars very like this Nissan Leaf can be seen alongside much bigger ones along the roadside in the town where I live. They are all for sale 2nd hand - & are all near-new. Whatever they originally cost, they are now marked down to similar prices of much larger & more powerful cars that are 7 to 14 years old. My 13 year-old station wagon was valued at the same price (A$3900, or about £2200, when I bought it early this year) as many of these tiny near-new-to-1-year-old vehicles that are now selling as 2nd hand. They are only of any use as a female office worker's first car for her use around her own (small) home town - & no further. These users are soon tiring of them - & soon replace them with something with much more guts, range, & carrying capacity. They're a complete waste of money!

Watchet


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:52 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:06 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Wakefield
One issue that you've not mentioned is a further substantial hidden subsidy.

Public funds funds are being used to create a network of charging points throughout the North East, despite the fact that the 100 mile range of these cars will be quite adequate to complete almost all the commuting-type journeys that the designers expect the cars to undertake.

Nissan were candid about this being unnecessary but, apparently, the general public perceives the need for charging facilities to be readily available throughout the North East, and our second-tier regional government (i.e. One North East) has financed their installation.

If the depreciation on the cars themselves is pretty brutal, what do you reckon the residual value of all these redundant charging points will be in a year's time?


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:12 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:30 am
Posts: 825
Location: Traveling again.
Sceptical Steve.

I will take a guess and say that these green auto electricians nightmare will be like mobile phones, each has its own type of charger

Richard,

is it not a good time to re- post that photo of the green machine between 2 trucks ?


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:00 am
Posts: 472
It's bootiful but it's not a Hen!


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 241
Aptly named, as they fall and die annually. Most do, and these probably will also. That's assuming there are enough gullibles to buy them in the first place.
Most likely, we will see certain celebrities sporting themselves in them first, before they debunk back into the Limo.

PS Beware: Slippery when wet.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
No suprise that such a useless piece of crap won the award, the motor industry is obsessed by "green" cars.....why??......because they see huge sales potential in them. 99% of people don't drive them, so if we can be conned into doing so, there are huge sales to be made.

Motoring hacks, with the honourable exception of our Charlie, are some of the most pliable clowns on the planet. A 2 dollar hooker has more principles and far more pride.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 805
The MPG figures can be questioned as well. Electricity generation inefficiency isn't taken into account.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely mad
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:27 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm
Posts: 906
According to Peter van Doren, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and editor of Regulation:

Three megawatt hours of electricity would be required for an electric car to travel 12,000 miles a year. But to get the three megawatt hours of electricity to the consumer requires the use of much more generation energy because of losses in transmission and other generator inefficiencies. Thus 11 megawatt hours of generation would be required to get the four megawatt hours to the car. This works out to the equivalent of 38 miles per gallon. This is the same efficiency offered by advanced gasoline, diesel and hybrid engines. And you don’t need to pay $33,000, the suggested manufacturer's retail price of the Leaf, to get them.

The lower marginal costs of electric car operation are offset by the much higher fixed costs of batteries relative to an internal combustion engine of equivalent output.
Yes, the marginal costs of plug-in electric cars are lower than conventional gasoline powered cars: three cents a mile if electricity costs 15 cents per kilowatt hour. Gasoline would have to cost 90 cents per gallon and be used at the rate of 30 miles per gallon to provide equivalent marginal costs. At $3 per gallon and 30 miles per gallon, the marginal costs of conventional cars (10 cents per mile) are more than triple the electric car marginal costs.

But the lower marginal costs of electric car operation are offset by the much higher fixed costs of batteries relative to an internal combustion engine of equivalent output. So for electric cars to be cost competitive, battery costs would have to be much lower (probably about a third of their current costs) or gasoline prices would have to be much higher (above $5 a gallon).

And there would not be carbon-emission advantages from electric cars unless all the new electricity used for cars were renewable. With natural gas-fired generation, the cost of carbon emission reduction from electric cars would be well over $100 per ton, much higher than any carbon tax recommended by economists. Thus, the electric car is not a cost effective answer to all our problems and would not exist without government tax subsidies.
FROM: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... r-problems

IMO the electric car only serves the Green Agenda. We are living in an Idiocracy.


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