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 Post subject: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:19 pm 
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When it was written, it was part of a front-page story: "Many MPs, appointed as guardians of the people's liberties, did not bother to attend the House when this measure, gravely affecting the liberty of the subject, was debated. Until the debate was ending, there were never more than fifty or sixty members in the Chamber. At times, even when vital points were being discussed, the number fell to barely thirty."

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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:50 pm
Posts: 200
Parliamentary debate has always been over-rated, mostly by MP's. This is especially so with whipped parties. I am still waiting to see that mythical beast the 'accountable politician'. We have more chance of catching sight of a Yeti.

At least they were our government in 1940, unlike today.


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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:43 pm 
Robertm wrote:
Parliamentary debate has always been over-rated, mostly by MP's. This is especially so with whipped parties. I am still waiting to see that mythical beast the 'accountable politician'. We have more chance of catching sight of a Yeti.

At least they were our government in 1940, unlike today.

Robert,

Indeed. Who among them would you appoint as a trustee of your affairs? Yet that is the precisely the function I see that they are there to perform on behalf of the whole nation.

Just look at those they have appointed as 'chairmen of the board' down the years. Bliar, Brown, Major, Camoron.... That should make answering the question very easy if it wasn't already.

Men of good character worthy of their trusteeship? My arse.


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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:52 pm 
Dear Marj (Sandy, for this purpose),

I asked, "Who among them...?" Of course, I should have asked "Whom among them...?" but it sounds so very contrived nowadays.

What should I do? Please help. It's getting me down.


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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
Posts: 6700
As long as the 'who' is in the accusative (him not he) then whom is right, though I agree the ignorant may find it contrived. PDT_Armataz_01_22
Misusing it as in "whom is trustworthy" is just wrong.
As a rule of thumb if you can replace the 'who' with 'him', rather than 'he' in the sentence then it should be 'whom', go by the m.

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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:03 pm
Posts: 437
"Whom among them...?" Sandy is right - and has given the best, simplest, explanation I've seen. I'll remember that.

On the grammatical level: 'whom' is English accusative (objective) case of 'who.' We don't use it with the verb 'to be' because that doesn't take an object; it takes a complement. Prepositions (by, with, from, to, for, etc) also take an objective case.

On the linguistic level: we never eliminated all the inflections from Old English, because they have their uses. People who call our grammar 'contrived' are perhaps posturing because they've learnt that word, and they may not know all its meanings. 'Her' would presumably have 'we' demanding things like "Who book dat?" Or "Fe who it done do this over where?" There's nothing like applying deconstruction to someone else's language, don't you know?

btw: I say hold onto the lovely old Northern pronouns! Foreigners just don't understand how really formal they're being by insisting on 'you' (the plural) instead of 'thee' and 'thou' (the singular) PDT_Armataz_01_22


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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:46 pm 
Knock, knock.

Who's there?

It's I.

Eye who[m?]?

Open the fcuking door and let me in.

I don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: When was this written?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:25 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:03 pm
Posts: 437
As I understand it, when Dr. North said: "this measure, gravely affecting the liberty of the subject" - he referred to usurpation of British Justice, and of the principle of Trial by Jury. Unfortunately, the principals are treating us more and more to the Passive Voice: which hides the performers of action, but lets the actors 'affect the ... subject.' Oddly enough, the perpetrators like to pretend the structure is objective and 'professional'! PDT_Armataz_02_20

Dr. N was not talking about grammar, I think. Apologies both to him and Mr. Archer: for the efforts in MnE and OE/Anglo-Saxon.


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