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 Post subject: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:00 am 
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If ever there was a necessary state intervention, it was the loan agreed by a dying Labour government to Forgemasters to finance the production of components for nuclear power stations – of which there is a worldwide shortage of capacity. Yet, one of the first things the Clegerons did was cancel the loan – and on grounds that now look very dubious indeed, if The Guardian and the rest of the media have got the details right.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:31 am 
That link to the Guardian story appears to be down - might they have pulled it?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:41 am 
It should work with:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010 ... sleaze-row

The point is that the nuclear industry (and indeed the expert construction engineers who can demonstrate a clear track record of competence in building nuclear plants) are presently very much at a premium. They can get well paid contracts across the world.

The actual loan proposed to Forgemasters would be considered as chicken feed even to a third world government.

What is REALLY needed is some measure of government support. Any nuclear project will run into a shit storm from all the greenie cranks and all those who have been convinced by their shroudwaving nonsense. With some measure of (even covert) political support, it is a battle that the nuclear industry can and should win.

With the Rt. Hon. "Lesbo Lover" Chris BuffHuhne in charge of DECC, (and with the Cleggerons having scrapped the abbreviated infrastructure planning route put in place by Labour and now, under Eric Pickles, in favour of making Planning a hostage to fortune of every nimby group) I can't imagine any nuclear project in the UK being worth pursuing. Much too much risk of spending millions developing plans and ending up wrestling with a pig. Where they get filthy and the pig enjoys it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:30 am 
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Rick Bradford wrote:
That link to the Guardian story appears to be down - might they have pulled it?


Nah ... 'tis me, messing up my links again. Fixdid ... thnaks.

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We are a satellite state of the Greater European Empire, ruled by a supreme government in Brussels. We owe this government neither loyalty nor obedience. It is not our government. It is theirs. It is our enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:06 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 4434
This never did make any sense, other than if it was prejudice or crookery.......now we can see it was both......and this shower of ***** isn't 3 months old.....

I give them < 6 months.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:29 am 
Has the article changed because i don't get the contraversy.

Guy told the goverment not to give them tax payers money, because he wanted to invest in it himself.

Don't we want such investments to be private rather than public where possible?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:35 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 1291
Location: UK
It's difficult to see how you create or maintain nuclear build capability in a de-industrialised (*) economy. Even in the most ambitious programme, the components manufacture requirement is for low volume runs at very high quality levels. In many cases, this only makes sense as an add-on to regular non-nuclear business.

* post-industrial, in newspeak. Along with post-democratic, post-normal science.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:55 am 
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Guest wrote:
Has the article changed because i don't get the contraversy.

Guy told the goverment not to give them tax payers money, because he wanted to invest in it himself.

Don't we want such investments to be private rather than public where possible?


I think you need a few quick lessons on insider dealing, undue influence and using position to leverage commercially favourable deals.

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We are a satellite state of the Greater European Empire, ruled by a supreme government in Brussels. We owe this government neither loyalty nor obedience. It is not our government. It is theirs. It is our enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:52 pm
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I sent this http://www.carboncommentary.com/2010/06/17/1573 to Oliver Letwin and this was his reply:-

Quote:
If you look carefully at the article you have sent me, you will see that it contains a massive inconsistency.

At the beginning of the article, it suggests that EDF will have to delay its plans to begin building nuclear power stations in the UK because of the removals of the subsidy for Sheffield Forgemasters.

At the end of the article, it states quite clearly that "The idea that EDF will commit to buying its pressure vessels from Forgemasters looks unlikely".

One or other of these statements might be true - but both of them can't simultaneously be true. If EDF needs to Forgemaster equipment for its stations, then it will clearly commit to buying its pressure vessels from Forgemasters.

I remain confident that the decision in relation to Sheffield Forgemasters will have no impact whatsoever on the speed with which EDF builds nuclear power stations in the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:05 am 
I watched the Parliamentary video, and at about 8:00 with Ed Milliband confronting Huhne, I felt a weird sensation of, as Melanie Phillips beautifully describes, "the world turned upside down"


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:39 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 1862
Quote:
If ever there was a necessary state intervention, it was the loan agreed by a dying Labour government to Forgemasters to finance the production of components for nuclear power stations – of which there is a worldwide shortage of capacity.

Yet, one of the first things the Clegerons did was cancel the loan – and on grounds that now look very dubious indeed, if The Guardian and the rest of the media have got the details right.

If there is demand for these things there is no need for a Government loan. Investors would be throwing money at Forgemasters. There must surely be a reason why they couldn't get all the funding privately. Or perhaps were discouraged from getting it all privately by the Government waving our chequebook about.*

The Lib Dems are opposed to nuclear. The Conservatives are not. The coalition fudge was 'no government money for nuclear'. The canceling of the Forgemasters loan appears consistent with the fudge. The consideration of it being state support is a bit of a red herring imo, though forms a handy further excuse to not lend the money. If the loan were to be at commercial rates it couldn't be argued to be state support. A knock on for this will be higher energy prices - which is precisely what they want as it reduces the effective subsidy that eco-wibble energy receives.

All they needed to do was pick one reason and stick with it but they can't even do that. No taxpayer money for nuclear OR wheel out the EU state aid bogeyman OR want to make renewable more attractive. It looks to me like they are going down a predetermined route of increasing energy prices and scraping the barrel for whatever fig leaf they can find to cover up their intent.


* EDIT: Does anyone know where the ultra massive forge was going to be? A thought occurred to me that other countries might have their forges somewhere with easy access to shipping so that international orders were easier to accommodate.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 1291
Location: UK
It's the big picture that's wrong, not the Forgemasters decision. Nuclear needs long term government commitment - a sensible planning approvals process, a commitment to take the energy, and underwriting waste disposal. For the UK to get a build capability, we would now be in the game of government managed inward technology transfer, and would have to be creative with EU competition and procurement laws. Historically, the heavy metal part of the supply, PVs and heat exchangers, happens early in the technology transfer process.

gareth wrote:
If there is demand for these things there is no need for a Government loan.

The involvement of governments means that this is not an open market. You won't sell PVs by being 10% cheaper than competitors (not that the the UK is a cheap place for production). You have to have some political/strategic alliance with the top level constructors and/or the end user. Without any facts to back myself up, I suspect the Forgemasters position is being over-egged. I can't see the industry suffering any sustained capacity gap for PVs - it's not trivial, but neither is it the highest technology end of the business. E.g. the Chinese could tool up with French know-how - Chinese government might even insist on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:54 pm 
RAENORTH wrote:
Guest wrote:
Has the article changed because i don't get the contraversy.

Guy told the goverment not to give them tax payers money, because he wanted to invest in it himself.

Don't we want such investments to be private rather than public where possible?


I think you need a few quick lessons on insider dealing, undue influence and using position to leverage commercially favourable deals.


Insider dealing? How has he gained an advantage over competing investors, what inside knowledge did he have?

Undue influence, maybe, but as said if there are private investors, the goverment shouldnt need to be influenced to stop the loan, they shouldnt be offering it in the first place.

Commercially favourable deals? no idea how that applies here.

Maybe i'm pig ignorant, but if so i doubt i'm the exception, and an explanation wouldnt go amiss.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 54
So why didn't they try to get a bank loan? Or did they, and failed to because Labour made no effort to ensure that the taxpayer money used to prop them up was then used to help the business community.

Sorry. You have a case of the hysterics it seems to me about this new government; frankly your blog, when not dealing with AGW, is starting to read like the Daily Mail, wehich is a shame, as your AGW work is excellent.

Do you not understand, also, that there is no such thing as "direct support by the government"? All the government can do is funnel YOUR money and MINE to whatever cause.

Take a chill pill man.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuffed, stuffed stuffed
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:04 am
Posts: 740
Location: Cheshire
I must say I am starting to feel pretty envious of the Chinese. They have a government which is serious about the economic development of their country. We have a bunch of dilettantes who wet their panties in fear of an inert trace gas. In the long term, can there be much doubt that this country is doomed?


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