One was a little taken aback yesterday by The Times which chose to compliment David Cameron on his "rational euroscepticism". This is ... a moment for Mr Cameron's sensible approach to Europe: a firm, hard-headed europragmatism, says that paper: "The policy of being in Europe but not run by Europe is right. Quite suddenly, it is also timely.

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Good post. The whole European project, unfortunately, was an Anglo-American idea. The US and UK wanted some mechanism by which the Continentals would not bring another bout of misery and destruction to the world. The Steel and Coal Community, the Common market, the EU, even the Euro was encouraged by the US and to a more restrained degree until recently by the UK. The idea was good: keep the Euros busy and perhaps they wouldn't go about starting world wars. Unfortunately, it was based on a lie. The lie, of course, is that Europe exists as anything other than a phrase used by geographers. The idea that the very different and historically squabbling states of the the old Continent could become a new United States was an enormous delusion. It ignored that the USA came out of a unified British heritage with respect for laws and institutions, and with a common language.

The EU quickly became French politicians using German money and relying on British (and American troops) to "project European power."

The Euro was the most spectacular lie of all. That these very different states could have a common, strong and sound currency. To watch Spanish tourists swaggering about in New York and Miami throwing money about hither and yon was really quite amusing. Particularly so as they would brag about Europe's great strength and power and boast about the "Euro is worth more than the dollar" as if those exchange rates necessarily mean anything about real power and wealth. Well, it's all coming undone now in a welter of scandal, greed and insanity. I would be happily gloating "I told you so" except that I really don't want to see misery and destruction in Europe and second, with all the globalization that's gone on, this Euro escapade could well drag us all down.

I have always felt that they would always want full political integration, which would mean the end of the individual nation state. However, I always thought that each country would still need to be identified as a Country for the sake of it's sports fan, especially the soccer fans. I could never believe that they could dispense with the 30-odd European Soccer teams, they would still have to have Country teams, and therefore they would never achieve full on integration. Imagine a world cup series with just a single European team, yes it would win, but how boring to not have England, Germany, Spain, France, Italy etc etc.

I agree with some of the comments in Bookers column, Many others believe that the Eurocrats will still try and make this into the perfect storm and still try to go on with political integration.
Imagine a 2 tier Euro, the lackadaisical southerners with their wax-works Euro, and the industrial northerners with their iron-works euro.
Would it be a perfect storm to persuade Cameron it was time to join the industrious iron-works euro now that the feckless southerners were gone?

Wow, JD, that footie facet had totally escaped me...but then I can't say I'm a fan & I'm not over-bright in any case...but yes, ridiculous though it may seem, football is part of the life & currency of the masses...it's importance is paramount as a war substitute & losers really don't feel too badly if they've walked the walk; there's always another day. Football, though I have little time for it, is the real glue that holds non-political Europe together.
More seriously, ( ye gods, what is more serious than football) some years ago on these pages I recounted trying to convince, at a time when I didn't know better, an American friend on the advantages of a united Europe...he looked at me aghast & laughed..."Jesus" he said, "You don't even speak the same fucking language!"
In retrospect, a perfect condemnation.

But hasn't this whole Euro crisis been successfully engineered for the purpose of enforcing political union upon us all?

I remember reading a commentary at least 18 months ago which stated that the EU plan was to bring all member states economically and financially to their knees and then in that highly weakened state, inflict ever more 'Union' upon them.

Isn't this exactly what is now happening?

God help us all.

The cart was put before the horse (as Booker puts it) because the EU knew it couldn't get away with the blatant political union bit first. The hope relied on the 'beneficial crisis' strategy - everytime the Euro ran into trouble it could be used as an excuse for more integration. The 'logic' being economic union would lead to political union. The problem here though is that the Euro is simply overwhelmed by the massive financial crisis that has happened both in the bank sector and as result of its own flaws. The situation and the markets are moving too fast for the EU to do anything other than buy time (of which not much is left). The EU will be very lucky just to keep the whole project together, let alone integrate further.

Nah. Brazil would still win it.

But since the EU Commission would have designated Brazil as a European country, Europe would win ... and it would still be boring.

Anyone mention a single European football team? It lost, to an English team (comprising Europeans):

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/infor ... all_en.htm

A single European team is nothing new:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... ctory.html

Back on topic: when Merkel says "If the euro fails, Europe fails", does she mean "Europe" [EU] or Europe? Or both? None of us is much concerned about the health of "Europe", but Europe we like - and both include the UK. I fear she meant both.

I'm not the only one to note that this is just another stepping stone. When you talk about how dire the consequences of the collapse of the Euro would be you are unconsciously arguing in favour of the Euro to the Eurocrats.

OT:

Politico: "Britain should be at the heart of Europe."

Realist: "Yeah, with a vengeance, pumping tube-loads of mastic into its coronary artery."

I would not be surprized if, on realising the dire state of Britiain's finances, Clegg found it impossible to considr two problems at the same time.
In the Eurozone the disaster is increasing hourly...small savers (of course the first hit) are close to despair as they see the value of their assets rapidly diminishing, probably never to recuperate. 2007 halved their asset value and now the predicted 2010 crash will do for the rest...and there's no way out....changing horses helps not at all as there are no stocks that are unaffected...Grim is an understatement.

Sure.

But in this case:

the man's a straight fcuking LIAR.

The two are not mutually exclusive - he could be pig ignorant and a liar ... most likely is.

Funny thing - before the election Cleggy was saying the economy (ours and the EU's) is so weak, we can't stop spending just yet. Now, he says, the economy is looking extremely weak, so we had better rein in spending immediately!