Murder

[RAENORTH]

When rumours of a major incident in Nad-e-Ali started circulating yesterday, from which we learned that five British soldiers had been killed, the limited details available indicated that this might have been an ambush by tribesmen disguised as Afghan police. As such this would have been an alarming development, but nothing particularly new. Even back in April 2007, CNN was reporting incidents of US patrols being attacked by Taliban donning Afghan national police (ANP) uniforms.

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[Odins Raven]

Some time ago it was reported that the Taleban encouraged people to join and desert from the Afghan army and police, maybe several times, in order to get the pay and weapons and training. It is crazy to waste resources training people to kill you. It is also crazy to spend billions bombing and shooting people in their own country, and then pay some of them to settle in Britain. British policy is crazy. One may suspect that the Taleban may accept this as a gift, and have some belief that whom Allah would destroy, he first makes mad.

[Bluehaven]

<i>Murder was done, but murder is a way of life in that country.</i>

They have it in their genes from all the imperial overlords that have stomped their big foot there.

This was a very good operation for the resistance.

[Freeport]

First commiserations to the families of the dead soldiers. Its even grimmer than usual in that they got killed by a supposed ally.

I'm not sure about your central point, it stretches things to say that the soldiers were murdered. We have a vast collection of mobs for jobs that work using local clothing in order to fit in. I somehow doubt if they carry Combat 95s to hop into just in case Osama Bin Laden wanders by so that they can shoot him properly in Geneva Convention style. And anyway weren't you just last week describing village burning in a reasonably positive manner, something else that rather fails the Geneva Convention test?
Or is this a they have to obey the rules otherwise they are bad people. We are good people so the rules don't apply to us. I never really understood that kind of thing at school.

As a side note if the attacker had worked for the police for three years his enlistment was pretty much up. Even so to kill five professional soldiers and wound six has to be seen as effective, so we can expect more of these attacks, possibly with the addition of suicide bombs to make them even more so.

[RAENORTH]

First commiserations to the families of the dead soldiers. Its even grimmer than usual in that they got killed by a supposed ally.

I'm not sure about your central point, it stretches things to say that the soldiers were murdered. We have a vast collection of mobs for jobs that work using local clothing in order to fit in. I somehow doubt if they carry Combat 95s to hop into just in case Osama Bin Laden wanders by so that they can shoot him properly in Geneva Convention style. And anyway weren't you just last week describing village burning in a reasonably positive manner, something else that rather fails the Geneva Convention test?
Or is this a they have to obey the rules otherwise they are bad people. We are good people so the rules don't apply to us. I never really understood that kind of thing at school.

As a side note if the attacker had worked for the police for three years his enlistment was pretty much up. Even so to kill five professional soldiers and wound six has to be seen as effective, so we can expect more of these attacks, possibly with the addition of suicide bombs to make them even more so.

The other side don't wear uniforms. And, in the sense that this is not a declared war, every action by the insurgents is unlawful. That is why you get coroners' verdicts of "unlawful killing". Our guys in mufti could be considered equivalent to plain-clothes police.

The "village burning" is an interesting issue. The Pashtuns apply collective punishment as part of their culture ... the tribe is responsible for the actions of its members. Yet we do not. We apply our social mores ... which must leave them puzzled.

[AJM]

Lets hope police uniforms arent as plentiful as they were in Iraq. The ANA seem more trustworthy than the ANP; I wonder if this because they are drawn from wider areas. Good article from The Register, 'BAE mounts the Last Charge of the Light Cavalry, British Swedish tank to slip through MoD's closing door?': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/04 ... _tank_bid/

'Global arms multinational BAE Systems has announced its bid to squeeze a last bit of cash out of the Ministry of Defence before next year's probable change of government and certain major reorganisation of MoD procurement plans... The original concept of FRES was for proper armoured vehicles light enough to be flown to a war rather than having to be shipped by sea and land - hence the "Rapid Effects" bit. But experience in the last few years has shown - as anyone really could have told the Army - that this is fantasy. A vehicle light enough to be airfreighted in a medium transport plane** can't be armoured heavily enough to resist common roadside bombs, heavy buried mines etc. Indeed, even a 60-tonne main battle tank can be knocked out by such means'

[RAENORTH]

Lets hope police uniforms arent as plentiful as they were in Iraq. The ANA seem more trustworthy than the ANP; I wonder if this because they are drawn from wider areas. Good article from The Register, 'BAE mounts the Last Charge of the Light Cavalry, British Swedish tank to slip through MoD's closing door?': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/04 ... _tank_bid/

'Global arms multinational BAE Systems has announced its bid to squeeze a last bit of cash out of the Ministry of Defence before next year's probable change of government and certain major reorganisation of MoD procurement plans... The original concept of FRES was for proper armoured vehicles light enough to be flown to a war rather than having to be shipped by sea and land - hence the "Rapid Effects" bit. But experience in the last few years has shown - as anyone really could have told the Army - that this is fantasy. A vehicle light enough to be airfreighted in a medium transport plane** can't be armoured heavily enough to resist common roadside bombs, heavy buried mines etc. Indeed, even a 60-tonne main battle tank can be knocked out by such means'

I've been meaning to do that ... there was an article in The Times ... a bigger load of tosh you you be hard to find. Agree with the comment on the Register ... it is a fantasy ... but it isn't FRES .. This is simply a Scimitar replacement programme ... those things are knackered.

[John Archer]

The barman at the local pub, a very reliable character, (well I think it might have been him) told me he heard that the shooting happened after the soldiers took off their body armour.

If so, the point is why were any of our soldiers in such dangerous intimate contact with the ragheads?

Even without knowing anything of afghan history, one would have to be a moron to believe one could trust any of them, especially in those circumstances. This is just so bloody obvious to me.

Why were the soldiers mixing with them without full body armour at least? Why weren't orders given to treat all afghans as potential enemy, especially those in close proximity, and that steps be taken to guard against an attack from them at ALL times? Bugger it if that affects the training.

I don't agree with training them anyway. Isn't that how the ragheads got a hand up on technique in the first place, from the CIA and US special forces or whatever?

ffffffffffffffff.................
[Good self-discipline, JA. Ed.]

[cause4concern]

I don't agree with training them anyway. Isn't that how the ragheads got a hand up on technique in the first place, from the CIA and US special forces or whatever?

Our glorious leaders have stated their aims on numerous occasions: Resource control and depopulation.

They don't care, as long as the oil and opium is flowing through their networks, and someone (anybody?) is dying.

Simple as that and all on public record.


Why people listen to the inbreds I'll never know... all gone delusional from chasing too many dragons and buggering prepubescent sex slaves. One thing is for sure, the inbreds and the Mullahs (I have no idea if they inbreed to the same extent) need each other far more than we need either of them.

[Edith Cavell]

Today (5 November) was the deadline for bids for the FRES Scout programme, designed to replace the CVR(T) family (Scimitar, Spartan, etc). General Dynamics UK have bid a variant of the ASCOD 2 tracked vehicle, a very smart design but which weighs around 38 tonnes gross and has the potential to stretch well into the 40 tonnes + bracket. You can see the images of the various family members on the GD website (go to the FRES micro-site). The problem here is that our vastly expensive A400M airlifter programme, intended to carry FRES (hence the 'Rapid Effects' in the name), has a maximum capacity of around 35-36 tonnes. The more observant among you may notice a slight weight problem. Having said that, the design appears workmanlike, although I suspect the Scout turreted version is a little high - the whole thing seems to be about the size and tonnage of a later model Sherman tank, an aeon away from the 7-10 tonne CVR(T) family. Clearly it will offer much better protection against IEDs, but will still be very vulnerable to larger devices, especially if planted under the road, rather than next to it.

BAE Systems has also submitted its own vehicle based on a shortened (6 road wheel) CV-90 chassis. This weighs 32 tonnes, with the possibility of growth to around 38 tonnes, so its air transportability is marginal. It appears to be a much less elegant design, quite reminiscent of 1960s-70s practice. If BAE fails to get the contract you can say goodbye to the tank plant in Newcastle. As a lighter vehicle it will be equally or even slightly more vulnerable than the GD offering, although of course no armoured vehicle is immune to large blasts or high velocity gunfire.

The In-service date is 2015, which at the present rate will be after the Western withdrawal from Afghanistan. Nonetheless, any future expeditionary or 'rapid intervention' operations (hampered no doubt by having to move these vehicles by sea, not air) will see these in use and I suspect insurgents in Africa or elsewhere will by that time have learned some clear lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan, to make things go with a bang. I suppose the quandary is, what is the alternative? In the mean time the UK's commitment to A400M must be questioned. If we are serious about moving 15 or 20 FRES Scouts for an intervention op we need perhaps 15 or 20 C-17s, not a hugely expensive aircraft like A400M that can not lift the main armoured vehicle. Incidentally why are we modernising Warrior when we could simply standardise on one of these chassis for a new generation infantry fighting vehicle? It is worth pointing out that these 'light' reconnaissance vehicles actually weigh more than Warrior.

Although recent events in south west Asia will obviously dominate this blog, I think it would be useful if we started thinking about how the Army will be structured, equipped, led and trained in the post-Afghan era. Will there by any public appetite for another major foreign commitment? Is FRES still the way ahead?

[RAENORTH]

Incidentally why are we modernising Warrior when we could simply standardise on one of these chassis for a new generation infantry fighting vehicle? It is worth pointing out that these 'light' reconnaissance vehicles actually weigh more than Warrior.

Good point ... that's what the US Army ended up doing with its M2/M3 versions of the Bradley, the latter being the scout version.

[Watchet]

This very disturbing Telegraph article gives a clue as to why Western policies centring around Afghani policemen are not working.

“They had no understanding of the basics of what it means to be a policeman... They certainly didn’t have a concept of being upstanding members of the community...How do you train this band of idiots and turn them into a force to be reckoned with if they have no sense of loyalty, no sense of belonging? The biggest problem was that we didn’t know who we were getting. There were no security checks – they were literally allowed to come into the compound and we had to rely on the local chief of police, who recruited them. We kept a close eye on them because we didn’t know or trust them – it was for our own security."

See:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/bened ... -training/

Watchet

[therewaslight]

Let's give them all asylum.

It is fascinating that they don't know the concept of "police" or "community".

From the original article in The Independent.

The Afghan army are a lot more switched on. They have started to stand up for themselves. But the police have not had the same investment. There is no point in pushing the army through to clear ground if you leave a void behind with the police.

It's not mentioned but should have been. The Afghan police are (presumably) drawn from locals - the Pashtun. OTOH the Afghan Army soldiers used in Pashtun areas are not usually Pashtun but Tajik or other nationalities that are the traditional enemy of the Pashtun.

Perhaps the policemen can be better employed thus -

The Afghan police are very good at understanding the environment and if the atmospherics have changed because they are local: they know the area and the people. They are also good at spotting IEDs, although some just pick them up and walk off with them, or put them into the back of their vehicle.

[Watchet]

Asia Times Online correspondent Syed Saleem Shahzad has 6 pieces tied to this link:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/talibanland.html

Apparently he was held by the Taliban in Afghanistan & then, during a nine-day ordeal, also interviewed them. In his 6 linked articles, he tells how the Taliban are preparing themzselves for a very active 2010, including (over optimistically, I would have thought), an assualt first on Kandahar, & then onto Kabul. Smacks of what the IRA used to call the "big push", but nonetheless a real danger for our, & our allies', troops next year.

Watchet

[RAENORTH]

Asia Times Online correspondent Syed Saleem Shahzad has 6 pieces tied to this link:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/talibanland.html

Apparently he was held by the Taliban in Afghanistan & then, during a nine-day ordeal, also interviewed them. In his 6 linked articles, he tells how the Taliban are preparing themzselves for a very active 2010, including (over optimistically, I would have thought), an assualt first on Kandahar, & then onto Kabul. Smacks of what the IRA used to call the "big push", but nonetheless a real danger for our, & our allies', troops next year.

Watchet

Thanks ... this is a man worth reading ... he is - in my view - one of the best informed commentators on the scene.