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EU Referendum & Friends • View topic - Stop pretending
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 Post subject: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Probably the main reason why the debate on the European Union does not progress is the wilful refusal of the political classes to come to terms with the reality of what the EU is, and where its ambitions lie. No better is this illustrated than by the current Telegraph leader which closes its dire, ill-informed series on "The State of Europe".

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:00 pm 
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A nation is a political construct with a supreme government, so a nation state of Europe is being created. You cannot have two nation states in the same place, so ours will be destroyed. Our relationship with our nation will transfer to Europe and our identity will be destroyed. I take it all the people in Britain are happy with that arrangement?


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Stuart wrote:
A nation is a political construct with a supreme government, so a nation state of Europe is being created. You cannot have two nation states in the same place, so ours will be destroyed. Our relationship with our nation will transfer to Europe and our identity will be destroyed. I take it all the people in Britain are happy with that arrangement?


You can have a "nation" without being a "state" - look at the American Indians. And the crucial attribute of a state is the ownership of territory. In that context, the EU is a new paradigm. It aims to be a government, rather than a state in the traditional sense. It is a hybrid construct, where the nations are allowed to keep the trappings of statehood, but they become subordinate to the supreme government.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:29 pm 
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RAENORTH wrote:
You can have a "nation" without being a "state" - look at the American Indians.


Or the English... might be a more appropriate example. PDT_Armataz_01_22

The powers of "Britain" are being hollowed out. The Scots and Welsh have encouraged this process, as have the traitor elite.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:39 am 
Forgive me for being positively very blue-eyed on this issue, and I know I am utterly out of my league when it comes to EU matters. But is it not just a tiny bit good that at least one MSM outlet is paying attention to the EU somewhat "seriously" ? They got the entire history and purpose of the EU wrong - yes, but perhaps other outlets might do a similar 'take on Europe/EU' series where this 'little' anomaly might be rectified?

Or maybe I am just being naive (high possibility).


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:46 am 
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13th spitfire wrote:
Forgive me for being positively very blue-eyed on this issue, and I know I am utterly out of my league when it comes to EU matters. But is it not just a tiny bit good that at least one MSM outlet is paying attention to the EU somewhat "seriously" ? They got the entire history and purpose of the EU wrong - yes, but perhaps other outlets might do a similar 'take on Europe/EU' series where this 'little' anomaly might be rectified?

Or maybe I am just being naive (high possibility).


We have lived with a "fudge" for over 40 years - and it is that which has allowed the political classes to get away with their "reform" agenda, which completely muddies the waters. As long as a goodly proportion of people can be fooled into believing that the purpose of the EU is ultimately benign ("laudable") there will never be any serious pressure for withdrawal. The Telegraph perpetuates this dishonesty and therefore has done more harm that good. Only when the people of the UK are forced to confront the stark choice - complete political integation or withdrawal - will there be a serious debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:58 am 
RAENORTH wrote:
We have lived with a "fudge" for over 40 years - and it is that which has allowed the political classes to get away with their "reform" agenda, which completely muddies the waters. As long as a goodly proportion of people can be fooled into believing that the purpose of the EU is ultimately benign ("laudable") there will never be any serious pressure for withdrawal. The Telegraph perpetuates this dishonesty and therefore has done more harm that good. Only when the people of the UK are forced to confront the stark choice - complete political integation or withdrawal - will there be a serious debate.


I suppose Lincoln's phrase I quite apt here then "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Perhaps the end is nigh at least for the reform agenda.

The only problem with having a real debate, as you say, people wont be able to swallow the truth. They wont accept it for the truth is too fantastical. A lie which has been perpetuated for 40 years? What do you make of that as a voter?

Hmm... I have nothing. I want a "yes" from the Irish just to put the Tories and Cameron in the hot seat. If anything it will reveal (hopefully) what they have in mind on Europe.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:00 am 
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13thspitfire wrote:
I want a "yes" from the Irish just to put the Tories and Cameron in the hot seat. If anything it will reveal (hopefully) what they have in mind on Europe.


Be careful what you wish for!

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:14 am 
Yes I know. I am just so desperate now anything will do which will tip the scales in favour of democracy, if at least British. Truth be told I sincerely believe in the firm commitment of democracy in most of the electorate. But, if Cameron does not promise a referendum, which I don't think he will, how many voters will in truth abandon the Tories? You put the figure at 1 million voters give or take a few ten thousand. Will they really care to take such a stand? The majority of the people are sick to the bone of the EU (polls how it time and again) but actually doing something about it involves taking a highly principled stand, which requires a kind of character few people possess. Keeping the NHS cow fed is more important, getting the Economy back in business is more important, sorting out Afghanistan is more important. They are all important issues (to some extent) but democracy does not fit into to most peoples list of priorities. Can you really blame people for being so utterly ignorant, I cannot, it is not as if they have all the facts and they will, with all likelihood, swallow whatever Cameron gives them come his "spine". Try denouncing Mr. Cameron over at Conservative Home, for his EU policy - it is like claiming Himmler was a libertarian.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:01 am 
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13thspitfire wrote:
Try denouncing Mr. Cameron over at Conservative Home, for his EU policy - it is like claiming Himmler was a libertarian.


You are quite obviously mistaken. Conservative Home is a beacon of objective, fair-minded and imnpartial comment. Tim Montgomerie says so.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:51 am 
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The EU is the biggest threat to the European people's since the Nazi's or Soviet Union.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:54 pm 
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RAENORTH wrote:
13th spitfire wrote:
Forgive me for being positively very blue-eyed on this issue, and I know I am utterly out of my league when it comes to EU matters. But is it not just a tiny bit good that at least one MSM outlet is paying attention to the EU somewhat "seriously" ? They got the entire history and purpose of the EU wrong - yes, but perhaps other outlets might do a similar 'take on Europe/EU' series where this 'little' anomaly might be rectified?

Or maybe I am just being naive (high possibility).


We have lived with a "fudge" for over 40 years - and it is that which has allowed the political classes to get away with their "reform" agenda, which completely muddies the waters. As long as a goodly proportion of people can be fooled into believing that the purpose of the EU is ultimately benign ("laudable") there will never be any serious pressure for withdrawal. The Telegraph perpetuates this dishonesty and therefore has done more harm that good. Only when the people of the UK are forced to confront the stark choice - complete political integation or withdrawal - will there be a serious debate.


I agree with with 13th Spitfire here in that at least the Lame Stream Media are reporting something, and not positively, about the EU.

The front page headline of the Sunday Express is EU IDIOTS - going on to (with 'photos) farmers hosing away 25 million gallons of milk, funded by British taxpayers, then. Why ARE we still in Europe.

The vast majority don't understand, and probably never will that the direction of the EU was designed to be secretive & manipulative. They'd rather believe that they wouldn't be lied to on such a grand scale. But they can understand when things are made simple like the headline above, which to be truthful I was quite surprised the Express went to so far as to state 'why are we still in Europe', then it went on to a 3 pager about it.

I've said before I didn't used to think about the EU, ashamed to say too busy doing other things to think it was of any interest, and that's what the politicans have relied on all these years, people like me. I then started reading about it and came to realise just what it was about, and EUref enlightened me on many things I didn't have a clue about. The Vast majority aren't as savvy & knowledgeable as Dr North, and most of on here. I think many come into the same category as I once was, ignorant, too busy to think about it. But I believe now it's becoming clearer just how much this insidious organisation is costing us and people realising that our own government have hardly any powers anymore, soon none, that's what the vast majority will understand, simple plain facts.

I just hope it wasn't a one off by the Express, but as with everything concerning the EU it's usually a one day splash. But I fear it's too late because Camerboy is, I believe, staunch EU.

It's said that UKIP has only one aim and that's withdrawal and no other policies if elected. What's to stop them recruiting like minded people who also wanted out of the EU, who have been in politics so that if they were to get elected they could withdraw from the EU then hand over the reins to those recruited to run the country as a government. All this to be put into a manifesto of course beforehand. Wishful thinking :)


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 Post subject: Re: Stop pretending
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:45 pm 

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There was this piece by Philip Johnston recently: EU: is Britain still a sovereign state?

Quote:
EU membership has led to deep constitutional changes in the UK. But it would be wrong to say that we have been robbed of our sovereignty, says Philip Johnston. Our government has been an accomplice all the way .


From the comments 'Austin' writes:

Quote:
Britain is still a sovereign state.

Lord Justice Laws explained the relationship between the UK and the EU, resolving the conundrum between the competing supremacies of Parliament and EU law, as part of his judgment in the "metric martyrs" case - see http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2002/195.html, in particular paragraph 59: basically (because the UK is what is termed a "dualist" as opposed to "monist" jurisdiction) the EU's writ runs in the UK only as long as Parliament says it does. We choose to be bound by the content of the body of EU law.

However, Parliament can freely repeal the European Communities Act (and all its amendments), and no EU law thereafter has any force in the UK. Politically the government is in very hot water because it finds itself in breach of treaty obligations, but that matters not a jot to the man in the street.


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