A tale of two armies

[RAENORTH]

Primitive British mine/IED clearance methods, compared with their US counterparts, may have been responsible for the death of Private Robbie Laws, 18, of the 2nd Mercian Regiment – to date, one of the youngest soldiers to die in Afghanistan.

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[Edith Cavell]

I think that you should also appreciate that MOD is under constant sustained pressure from the Treasury to sell off or dispose of any equipment and materiel that is not immediately needed. The bean counters work on the basis that storage costs good money that can be used for social causes and they have emptied out military stores and ordnance depots to a much greater extent than most readers will realize. Such decisions tend to be taken despite military protests and they have done a fine job in selling off good equipment cheaply over the last decade. Hence the removal from service and disposal of so much of the useful kit we had in the Balkans such as MRAPs and mine clearers.

[RAENORTH]

I think that you should also appreciate that MOD is under constant sustained pressure from the Treasury to sell off or dispose of any equipment and materiel that is not immediately needed. The bean counters work on the basis that storage costs good money that can be used for social causes and they have emptied out military stores and ordnance depots to a much greater extent than most readers will realize. Such decisions tend to be taken despite military protests and they have done a fine job in selling off good equipment cheaply over the last decade. Hence the removal from service and disposal of so much of the useful kit we had in the Balkans such as MRAPs and mine clearers.

This is something, I think, needs much more investigation. This is rank stupidity.

[gareth]

Isn't that just the other half of the political game the MOD play? Can't maintain Treasury support for FRES, A400M, etc without giving something up. That something appears to have been the battlefield effectiveness of the Army.

In terms of the sheer numbers of IEDs the Taleban have been able to plant, does that suggest we haven't got enough eyes in the air - Watchkeeper, Reaper, Defenders and Nimrods - and ears on the ground by getting to know the locals, or is the terrain so vast that it would be impractical?

Might a ground based surveillance network help? Masts, tethered blimps, something like that. Even going so far as to have wells, bridges, wind turbines or a basic telephone network to get the locals interested. Could even be those cameras with microphones to tell the Taleban not to drop litter...

[davey]

The treasury also levy a 6% charge annually on all equipment stored. It was brought in a couple of years ago, in a change of how the accountancy is done within the MOD. Something along the usual line of 'best civilian practice.' It ensures there are constant studies into how much of everything we have.

[Guest]

Well, Labour's fantasy approach to government over the last 12 years has included complete economic failure, botched medical service reforms, a disastrous state education system, a politicized police service, uncontrolled immigration, systematic lying ('spinning') on a whole range of issues, vendettas against those who disagree with them and reckless expenditure on all those social causes dear to their hearts, topped by a slimeball political regime and parliament as we have seen in the last few weeks. If we add a determination to send seriously slimmed down and inadequately equipped forces to participate in liberal interventionism (Kosovo, cruise missile attacks on Baghdad, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq) and an attempt to portray, both domestically and abroad, that the UK is a major, modern, progressive country, it is hardly surprising that they will sell off the family silver by telling MOD that if they want new equipment something must go. It might be interesting to ask the Disposal Service Agency under the Freedom of Information exactly what has been sold off over the last 12 years, although I suspect they would find some security clause to refuse to answer. Perhaps a friendly MP might like to pick this one up and run with it. Thank you Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

[Mosquito]

I heard on Radio 4, of all places, some while ago, that a number of small ATVs purchased by the MoD had been sold off, then operational requirements changed and they were bought back at a vast markup, then they were sold again. Do I remember this correctly? As presented by the BBC it seemed like a massive cockup.

[Mosquito]

..and here is what they are selling now...http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicles/,37,/Armoured_Vehicles.htm

[RAENORTH]

..and here is what they are selling now...http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicles/,37,/Armoured_Vehicles.htm

Why are we selling off CETs for £9,500 in "very good" condition, when they could be serviced and sent off to Afghanistan and used for roadbuilding, etc? And if we can't use them, I am sure the Afghan Army could.

[Guest]

Because it is all about generating money for the gaping maw of the Treasury of course. Not may Treasury civil servants will be risking their lives in combat, will they? The huge government spending deficit of the last few years means that everything is now up for grabs (not just in defence). What is more interesting is what they are trying to sell in terms of artillery, radar, ordnance etc that does not appear on the sales website but which is quietly touted around the international bazaars.

[Guest]

Why are we selling off CETs for £9,500 in "very good" condition, when they could be serviced and sent off to Afghanistan and used for roadbuilding, etc? And if we can't use them, I am sure the Afghan Army could.

I was going to post something similar.

Having proper engineer support means that vehicles aren't restricted to known choke points. If not being able to cross wadi's where we want at least we have the option to cross at a greater number of places. The terrain is covered by tracks and ground drivable by good off road vehicles. Why are we always caught? Where do the Taliban find cover (outside the green zone?)

This is allied to the tracks vs wheels argument. Tracks will always take you a lot further. The counter argument is that lose a track the vehicle is stopped. But the same can be said about a 4x4. Even 6x6 and 8x8 once hit by a mine that removed one wheel would have probably suffered that much mechanical damage that it couldn't continue.

What we need is a comprise BTR-90 style vehicle mounted on something like these http://www.mattracks.com/

I agree we need more route surveillance. It would be interesting to know how much patrolling of the roads takes place. Probably due to shortages not enough.

[RAENORTH]

Even in the desert, there are people around ... and eyes watching. I remember once I was in the Sinai - in the middle of nowhere, nothing but desert from horizon to horizon ... and out of that "nowhere" came a little Arab girl, wanting to sell us cigarettes and trinkets.

[Guest]

a basic telephone network to get the locals interested.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20479899/

[Salvador]

Public attentiion needs to be drawn to the whole UOR situation. As when items I purchased as part of an UOR funding to keep it in service OFTEN does not follow. So expect all these new vehicles to be disposed of PDQ should the fighting subside. For gods sake they have refused to fund the MQ9 REAPERS. These will have to be sold off or kept in storage as part the MoD has not provided the long term funding. This is is for kit that has proven to be a battle winner and a key strategic capability.

The MoD is not fit for purpose... The sooner we remobe the "Bean-Counters" from operaional decision making the better.

[Freindly Fire]

This is a MoD problem, Labour are useless in Govt, MoD are getting bribes for shit equipment.