Col Thorneloe threads

[Odins Raven]

Maybe there's more to it than a bad vehicle. If the bomb was at an obvious site such as a bridge or ford, (a canal crossing point was mentioned on TV), shouldn't it have been checked by his men before the Colonel's vehicle arrived? Was he actually leading the advance in an insufficiently-armoured car? Had the enemy correctly predicted his movements and had sufficient time to bury a big bomb where they knew he would pass? Did they have someone in hiding who was not detected by the advancing troops and who detonated the bomb when a valuable target arrived? Could tactics and intelligence be implicated as well as the quality of the vehicle?

[RAENORTH]

Maybe there's more to it than a bad vehicle. If the bomb was at an obvious site such as a bridge or ford, (a canal crossing point was mentioned on TV), shouldn't it have been checked by his men before the Colonel's vehicle arrived? Was he actually leading the advance in an insufficiently-armoured car? Had the enemy correctly predicted his movements and had sufficient time to bury a big bomb where they knew he would pass? Did they have someone in hiding who was not detected by the advancing troops and who detonated the bomb when a valuable target arrived? Could tactics and intelligence be implicated as well as the quality of the vehicle?

I completely agree ... where was the OPBAMA ... the route surveillance. As to his presence in the Viking, it seems that he had hitched a lift on a supply run to visit his forward posts. In the final analysis, however, armour may well have saved the day. I will write more on this later.

[Stuart]

Apparently they are preparing to send tanks to Afghanistan.

[Rob]

Having followed this story about troop deaths and inadequate protection of vehicles for some time, it appears to me that before the troops are issued with any vehicule that is supposedly bomb proof, it should be tested containing a full team from the MOD.

If the equipment is so good they should have no qualms about driving through a mine field themselves.

[RAENORTH]

Having followed this story about troop deaths and inadequate protection of vehicles for some time, it appears to me that before the troops are issued with any vehicule that is supposedly bomb proof, it should be tested containing a full team from the MOD.

If the equipment is so good they should have no qualms about driving through a mine field themselves.

I seem to recall suggesting something like that!

[Peter]

"As for your use of the word "moaning", could you be a little more pejorative? Go on, you owe it to yourself - try a little harder."

Coming from you,that is a bit rich!

Since the replacement for the Viking is apparently not going to be in theatre until the new year what will be done to protect the troops until then? Since vehicles with better mine protection is not going to be available,I would presume that tactic will have to be changed until such time as they are.

Meanwhile the carnage will go on.If the MoD cannot run this war,then perhaps Britain should not be in in it? Certainly the Government has no interest in this dirty little war,nor has the MSM,so why should the British Army be left to bleed in the dust of Afghanistan?

[RAENORTH]

"As for your use of the word "moaning", could you be a little more pejorative? Go on, you owe it to yourself - try a little harder."

Coming from you,that is a bit rich!

Since the replacement for the Viking is apparently not going to be in theatre until the new year what will be done to protect the troops until then? Since vehicles with better mine protection is not going to be available,I would presume that tactic will have to be changed until such time as they are.

Meanwhile the carnage will go on.If the MoD cannot run this war,then perhaps Britain should not be in in it? Certainly the Government has no interest in this dirty little war,nor has the MSM,so why should the British Army be left to bleed in the dust of Afghanistan?

Ridgebacks are already coming on-stream. And there are 50 brand new Cheetahs sitting in the Force Protection factory in SC, with a production line geared up to produce more. Meanwhile, the HoC Defence Committee is reporting that the estimated cost for AFG in the forthcoming financial year is £3.5 billion. Acts getting together would be a good start.

[Lee Hannaford]

It is a vehicle that is being used incorrectly. The Viking was purchased by the Royal Marines to be a manouver warfare vehicle not a convoy vehicle. In the same way that the Jackal was purchased as a manouver warfare vehicle and not a convoy vehicle.

Bob Ainsworth states that more helicopters would not have stopped this event from happening then goes on to state that the Merlins in Iraq are being sent to Afghanistan.

Senior officers, if they want to visit their front line should follow what the americans do, put the officer in a helicopter take him to the front line let him have a look around and then bring him/her back to do their job of commanding the operation. The risk would be alot smaller and the senior officer could visit more of their command. However due to the lack of rotary resources in Afghanistan and the misuse of the vehicles in theatre we have commanders going around in vehicles doing things that the vehicles were not designed to do.

The Viking is a good manouver warfare vehicle, the Jackal is a good manouver warfare vehicle but they are poor convoy protection vehicles. They just were not designed to do that.

However with a squadron of Lynx out in theatre for example these commanders could get flown from OP to OP and they would also get a birds eye view of the terrain that their men are fighting in.

Again it comes down to funding and putting money in the right place at the right time. We now have Warthog coming into service and a variety of other vehicles being rushed through the UOR process.

What doctine are the guys out there following? How does the equipment fit match the doctrine? Or are we making it up as we go along? The Welsh guards have now lost their CO, one of the Coy Commanders and a platoon commander. Gents trying to do their jobs to the best of their ability with equipment that was not fit for the purpose it was being used.

The government can argue that they are putting millions of pounds in to getting the kit out there but when it gets there it is used for other things. Why? Simple - There is not enough equipment out there so they have to use what they have.

Commanders on the ground have been screaming for more rotary assets - give them what they ask for. Commanders on the ground have been screaming for more troops, 2000 to be precise - give them what they ask for.

The government are putting lives at risk by not listening to what the troops on the ground want and need because the treasury says no and Gordon Brown hasn't been convinced by the arguement. Look at the picture of a man with his two children. Convincing enough for you now Prime Minister?

[Peter]

"Ridgebacks are already coming on-stream. And there are 50 brand new Cheetahs sitting in the Force Protection factory in SC, with a production line geared up to produce more. Meanwhile, the HoC Defence Committee is reporting that the estimated cost for AFG in the forthcoming financial year is £3.5 billion. Acts getting together would be a good start."


"Action this day" from the Prime Minster would also be a good start. There seems to be no political imperative,perhaps if votes were at stake instead of lives there might be some action?

[gareth]

Richard,

Interesting illustration to 'Time to get this sorted'. Is that a LASM being fired? Have Javelins been relegated due to being a bit too much for blasting mud huts?

[sharpz111]

Ask yourself why the MoD is buying 200 Yamaha quad-bikes for Afghanistan at £25k a piece when the "Commercial Grizzly 450 versions sell for about £7,000, rising to about £8,000 for the highest end models", and the constant 'we need more money' argument begins to look kind of hollow.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Mor ... rmy-05547/

There is plenty of blame to go around...and not all of it falls on the politicians.

[RECAM 1]

Richard, what exactly do you mean by “And there are fifty brand new Cheetahs sitting in the Force Protection factory in SC, with a production line geared up to produce more.” Are they to enter service with U.S. forces? They seem too many to be trials vehicles. Have they perhaps been produced “on spec”, and are now waiting for a purchaser? Could a British order be in the offing? No, that last would just be too fanciful altogether, wouldn’t it? They wouldn’t half solve a few problems, though.

[RAENORTH]

Richard, what exactly do you mean by “And there are fifty brand new Cheetahs sitting in the Force Protection factory in SC, with a production line geared up to produce more.” Are they to enter service with U.S. forces? They seem too many to be trials vehicles. Have they perhaps been produced “on spec”, and are now waiting for a purchaser? Could a British order be in the offing? No, that last would just be too fanciful altogether, wouldn’t it? They wouldn’t half solve a few problems, though.

They were produced "on spec" in anticipation of winning the US M-ATV competition. Force Protection took a calculated gamble ... last time they got a big order for MRAPs from the US government, there were delays in production and they were fined heavily. This time, they decided to get ahead of the game ... but did not get the order. Hence, some gleaming new MRAPs ready and waiting for a buyer.

[Odins Raven]

Was he the officer who led the parade of the Welsh Guards at the Trooping of the Colour shown on TV a couple of weeks ago?

[RAENORTH]

Was he the officer who led the parade of the Welsh Guards at the Trooping of the Colour shown on TV a couple of weeks ago?

Nah ... he's been on ops since October.