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 Post subject: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:02 pm 
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The long-awaited ruling from the German constitutional court at Karlsruhe has been delivered, offering a curate's egg verdict – good[ish] in parts. According to the BBC, the court has decided that the <s>constitutional</s> Lisbon Treaty is compatible with German law - but has suspended ratification of it pending extra national legislation needed to ensure that the German parliament participated fully in adopting EU laws.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:30 pm 

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The verdict was a smallish document of 147 pages. Doubtful if any of the commentators have had time to read through it. (Just like those 300 pages delivered to the Congress recently.) I think we will have to wait a few days to see if it is possible for the German parliament to get its act together in time. They are taking recess from next week IIRC, and as you wrote the reading in late August will be an extra session. Another complication (maybe) is the fact that there is an election scheduled for 29 September. Given the dismal outlook for the Social Democrats, are we sure they will play along, or will they play the eurosceptic card? And what about CSU (Gauweiler's party)?

The German Constitutional Court did not make up for the way the judges behaved in the 30s, when they allowed Hitler a legal path towards absolute power, but at least they' put a small (maybe very small) spanner in the works of the Lisbon treaty. However, brave they were not!


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:39 pm 
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mikgen wrote:
The verdict was a smallish document of 147 pages. Doubtful if any of the commentators have had time to read through it. (Just like those 300 pages delivered to the Congress recently.) I think we will have to wait a few days to see if it is possible for the German parliament to get its act together in time. They are taking recess from next week IIRC, and as you wrote the reading in late August will be an extra session. Another complication (maybe) is the fact that there is an election scheduled for 29 September. Given the dismal outlook for the Social Democrats, are we sure they will play along, or will they play the eurosceptic card? And what about CSU (Gauweiler's party)?

The German Constitutional Court did not make up for the way the judges behaved in the 30s, when they allowed Hitler a legal path towards absolute power, but at least they' put a small (maybe very small) spanner in the works of the Lisbon treaty. However, brave they were not!


The proximity of the election could, I would have thought, change the dynamic. Elections do wondrous things to politicians' minds, concentrating them on the perceptions of voters. One wonders how the German electorate will react to the spectacle of their MPs rushing to make a new law to hand over their powers to Brussels. The long-running saga over the VolksWagen law comes to mind - although not much reported here, this has - amongst other things - taken root in Germany, where the EU is more and more regarded as a job-killer. Perhaps there is hope for a last-minute glitch, which could see the treaty unratified and becoming an election issue. One lives in hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:34 pm 

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With inflation eating at the savings and the Bundesbank being handed over to Brussels surely the Germans must be getting restless?

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:09 pm 
So October for the referendum?


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:43 pm 

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R. North wrote:
Quote:
One wonders how the German electorate will react to the spectacle of their MPs rushing to make a new law to hand over their powers to Brussels.


In all likelyhood they won't react if the european question is simply kept out of the election campains. With an economic crisis going on, and on the back end of a major coalision govenment between the Socialdemocrats and the Christian Democrats, that should not be too hard to do. Add to that that all major parties from the two afore mentioned to the Liberal Democrats are "swivel eyed" europeans.

Given Germanys past, it will also be VERY hard to mount any kind of national identity protest during the election - and as for a leftist Grüne opposition to EU - I think they have quite gotten to like the project.

So in all likelyhood yet another "europe free" election concentrating on local issues - that are decided by Brussels anyway PDT_Armataz_01_33

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:44 pm 
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With Irish commissioner Charlie McCreevy recently conceding that voters in most EU countries would have rejected the treaty, given the opportunity, one wonders what it is that impels our rulers to defy their own people in such an egregious manner.


Power, status, money... simple, really.

When colonialism went into decline at the beginning of the 20th Century European countries had a lot of elites kicking-around for some action. (Germany, whose elite class never had a good foreign Empire, kicked around Poland and France instead.)

The ambitions of this over-populated elite class were found an outlet in the international institutions, and the EU. This gave them status, good money, and kept them occupied - but at a cost of gradually turning Europe into something like colonial India or Africa.

Now we are at a time when these institutions can't really grow any more*, not because there isn't an educated class of elite clones waiting to join them but because they're out of money and ideas.

So they are now resorting to desperate measures to raise funds on pathetic ideological excuses to keep the scam, their power, status and money going.

This cannot long be hidden from the people.


* 1. The industry of designing the laws, and implementing standardised rules on a continental scale cannot be up-scaled much beyond that requiring extra staff.

Exception 1: In the short term, one of the things about the "Climate Change" scam that is popular - in addition to widening the status gap between elites and non-elites - is it provides international institutions an excuse alter job roles in order to retain staff and public funding.

Exception 2: This also applies to immigration and the intractable social problems it causes. Not exactly problems, they are perfect, because there is no perfect law so a great excuse to steal money to fund an institution to represent it and persistently provide failing recommendations to solve the problems.

2. Monitoring, data accumulation and research institutions, such as the OECD and World Tourism Organisation, are ridiculously outdated in the Internet age and are only kept going because nobody has the bottle to pull the plug.

These ridiculous bodies don't need a £250m budget and 2500 employees in Paris, or Madrid. Not just because they duplicate what businesses already do better but because, as far as they say anything useful ever politicians completely ignore them.

3. Beyond extreme fund raising measures, the wealth to pay for all of the above is rapidly running dry.

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:49 pm 
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I cannot possibly concieve how the EU could be consistent with any constitution that protects its people from infringements of democracy and accoutability. I guess this speaks volumes on pretty much all constitutions around the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm 

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Quote:
Nothing, it seems, will stop the Gadarene rush of national legislatures to divest themselves of powers, handing them over to an alien construct in Brussels.



When you consider that most of them believe in AGW, is it any surprise, they after all all fools and anyone who votes for them is even more stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:06 am 
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Among the tragedies of recent History is the demolition of institutions in which the man-in-the-street had faith & implicit trust. One of these was the Bundesbank, then Germany's Rock of Gibraltar...the other, the Bundesverfassungsgerichthof in Karlsruhe...and it should be remembered that the German Constitution was written with the WW2 allies guiding the hands of the writers. (that alone has caused endless problems ever since.)
I remember the euphoric days surrounding the fall of 'the Wall'...yes, it was intensely moving...and then I heared with horror that Helmut Kohl intended to exchange the DDR Ostmark with the DM on a 1:1 basis...the then market rate being 13:1
The Bundesbank's President, Herr Pöhl, objected but his hand was forced (political expediency) & he later resigned.
It was, at the time thought that East Germans were poor...they were not...they had massive savings but simply nothing on which they could spend their money...which had now suddenly increased in value by a factor of 13. The orgy of spending that followed had to be seen to be believed. Of course the money ran out.
Since then, everyone who is taxed in West Germany has to pay the Solidaritätszuschlag... an extra 5.5% addition to Income Tax to support the former DDR Länder....over the years an astronomic amount
Thank you Dr. Helmut Kohl.
I mention all this because I have the sneaky feeling that Karlsruhe is having its Bundesbank moment and the consequences may well be equally disastrous.

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 am 
There is an interview in Der Spiegel with Dr. Gauweiler, he seems very optimistic and seems still to believe in the German Institutions and the strengthening of the Bundestag on everything related to EU directives. My impression is much more pessimistic, politicians will just move 'forward', some lawyers will make big bucks going to the BVerfG (German constitutional court) and Ministers will continue to vote what ever they want in the Council meetings in Brussels. Or do you think they will say: "Hey, I first have to ask my Bundestag, I'll come back in 4 weeks with the answer"? What would their 'colleagues' think?


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 Post subject: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:17 am 

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therewaslight wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
With Irish commissioner Charlie McCreevy recently conceding that voters in most EU countries would have rejected the treaty, given the opportunity, one wonders what it is that impels our rulers to defy their own people in such an egregious manner.


Power, status, money... simple, really.


It must be more than that, otherwise at least some disappointed & passed-over politicians & bureaucrats would change sides, & blow the whistle. I suspect it's a combination of bribery (eg deliberately lax supervision of expense claims, & very generous pensions schemes), blackmail (over tax-doubtful expense claims & other activities - including adultery & any other ill-advised liaisons in Brussels etc etc), enticing promises of preferment & promotion for those who will co-operate), & threats for those who will not - or threaten not to. Maybe more - if that's possible. This includes bureaucrats, journalists (who need to be allowed into the "in-crowd" to get the material for their news stories, & MEPs etc.

The lack of people telling it "like it really is" suggests there are a lot of people being "encouraged" one way or another to tow the EU party line. Easy for the EU really - when they, unlike shareholder-owned businesses, have failed to have their 100 million euros-plus annual accounts approved for 14 years on the trot now! And with unpunity, astonishingly!

Watchet


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:55 am 
After reading a lot of comments here in the german media, I would say the EU critics are very happy with the ruling. The BVerfG basicly said "Yes" to the treaty because it's not a constitution - because it's not that important. However, the BVerfG does strengthen the role of the parliament and it's own role.

There are some important points in the ruling:

- the BVerfG puts itself ABOVE the European High Court. The BVerfG gives itself the right to revoke EU rulings in Germany, and (if I'm correct) any german citizen can fight EU rulings this way.

- Any change of the Lisbon treaty has to be approved by the german parliament and the Bundesrat (upper house of the German parliament), probably with a 2/3 majority.

- Germany cannot be dissolved into a EU superstate without a new constitution. This would only be possible after a nationwide referendum (which will never happen).

- also, the BVerfG told the politicians that the EU parliament isn't a real parliament, and, as long as the EU doesn't become a state, will never be: "(...) nicht auflösbaren Demokratiedefizits (...)" roughy translated "unsolvable democratic deficit".

So while I hoped the BVerfG would stop the treaty, this is the second best we could get.


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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:16 pm 

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So the German Nation reserves the Right to protect its citizens from EU law.
Would that our perfidious Judiciary understood.

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 Post subject: Re: Another one down?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Watchet wrote:
It must be more than that, otherwise at least some disappointed & passed-over politicians & bureaucrats would change sides, & blow the whistle. I suspect it's a combination of bribery (eg deliberately lax supervision of expense claims, & very generous pensions schemes), blackmail (over tax-doubtful expense claims & other activities - including adultery & any other ill-advised liaisons in Brussels etc etc), enticing promises of preferment & promotion for those who will co-operate), & threats for those who will not - or threaten not to. Maybe more - if that's possible. This includes bureaucrats, journalists (who need to be allowed into the "in-crowd" to get the material for their news stories, & MEPs etc.


Yes. Good points. Although if changing sides causes loss of power, status and wealth I'd say they are also all related to power, status and wealth acquisition/retention.

The problem of bribery, blackmail, and the opportunity for corruption within the governing group is in fact why, I suspect, secret societies (commonpurpose, Freemasons) persist at the elite level but not at the societal level.

You have to watch your back up there, and these groups help do that. In less class based countries which don't have secret societies "back watchers" are usually members of the rulers tribe or extended family who have been promoted to powerful positions across the breadth of government.

Quote:
The lack of people telling it "like it really is" suggests there are a lot of people being "encouraged" one way or another to tow the EU party line. Easy for the EU really - when they, unlike shareholder-owned businesses, have failed to have their 100 million euros-plus annual accounts approved for 14 years on the trot now! And with unpunity, astonishingly!

Watchet


There will come a time when more elites do "tell it like it is". That will be when there is no longer the wealth to pay for a fat class of unproductive elites, who are essentially idle aristocrats. When that time does come their number will have to reduce and some will have to lose their power, wealth and status. They won't go quietly.

How this will manifest itself, I don't know! I can't really imagine blood running down th corridors of EU buildings in Brussels, though it's a very nice thought.

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