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 Post subject: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:54 pm 
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An interesting piece and somewhat alarming piece in The Sunday Telegraph pulls together the rarely discussed issue of the EU regional policy, noting that various European separatist movements are set to welcome the expected ratification of the [s]constitutional[/s] Lisbon treaty.

View full article here

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:24 pm 
The SNP has/had a slogan: Scotland at the heart of Europe (Salmond should get an atlas). By this the SNP intended to break Scotland out of the Union and hand all powers acquired over to Brussels. For a 'nationalist' party to wish the nation to have no powers above those of a local authority is absurd but that is exactly what the SNP, Plaid Cymru and certain other approved 'nationalist' parties propose. Of course, there are other nationalist parties (BNP, FN, VB etc) but they are not 'approved' precisely because they really are nationalist - and we can't be having that now, can we?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:02 am 
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Let Wales, Scotland and especially Ulster go.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:21 am 
"Let Wales, Scotland and especially Ulster go."

I used to be of the same opinion until I realised that's what Brussels wants.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:57 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:30 pm
Posts: 80
Guest-28-6 wrote:
"Let Wales, Scotland and especially Ulster go."

I used to be of the same opinion until I realised that's what Brussels wants.


Mr Page, i hope that comment was in jest, otherwise you are a very stupid man indeed.
When will people get it into their thick, stupid heads that the underhanded process of grafting onto the vine is the very way in which this european 'project' has developed for centuries/millenia, and this latest Catalonia/Flanders projection is exactly as 'Guest-28-6' says, "...what Brussels wants."

The whole process for Europe is to get everyone in it's jurisdiction to be 'as ONE'....even if it means giving the 'breakaway' units their 'freedom' (for a while only, of course).......this is the worst thing for us as nations and individuals.

Being from Scotland i also agree with 'Allan_Aberdeen': why campaign for 'freedom' to then be, immediately, put under the control of an even larger, unelected executive after that. The British (and the individual countries within) people have their own identity there is no need for the splitting up of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:31 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:55 pm
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Location: Denmark
Well...

It might be a mixed blessing for Brussels.

After all once the regions have tasted the sweet taste of freedom, they might not be so eager to give it up.

Plus these new "states" are forming around ethnic cores - not exactly what a multi ethnic "empire" like Brussels need - one need only look at Yugoslavia (who even had a common language and similar culture), Czekoslovakia or indeed England-Ireland (also with no language barriers) to see where that could potentially lead.

Once the states are ethnically homogenous they will (in my opinion) have a much larger prophency to rebel against a foreign power especially when the foreign power is dominated by another etnic group.

This is also why true democracy is an impossibility in EU-Europe.

The European Union - the entity that brought Yugoslavia to YOUR doorstep

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:40 am 
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Very interesting post!

However, you use the word "regions" when "ethnicities" might have been more telling.

It is clear Britain, Spain, France, Germany and other large states are indistinguishable from Empires. Not just because they previously had global ones abroad, but that they were mostly run by a ruling elite which ruled those Empires, and which, in turn, was largely drawn from the ethnicity which had dominance over the rival ethnic groups within the home territory (e.g. ____ over the Scots, Welsh and Irish, ___ over Bretons and Basques. I'm not sure of the identity of _____ !).

The European Union, as an Empire is no different from the European states it is replacing. The bureaucratic elite is from a largely similar class of people that have dominated the European Empires and courts for a thousand years.

The disintegration from state-empires into more primal forms of political organisation based on ethnicity (or "regions") both shows how ridiculous the idea of the European is, but also that it is not lost, because the concept of the European is the basis of this redistribution of power.

The regions derive political legitimacy from their majority ethnic population, which have lived in the same region in Europe for many hundreds of years.

Legitimacy within the EU framework is thus a question of shared European history; the rules that apply in Scotland apply for the Bavarians as much as they do for Catalans because they are based on old maps and established European settlement.

The exclusion of non-European immigrant populations from this redistribution of authority cannot be a coincidence. This is a power battle among Europeans: the EU project is a last gasp effort from the elites of the old ruling classes of the former European Empires to retain power. Their final Empire.

In an attempt to retain power they have to hollow out the Empires within the Empire, but they have found, and will increasingly find, the ethnic forces released by this are much stronger than the concept of the European, which is merely a tool used by regional groups to gain power.

So as the European Union fractures into smaller, more numerous entities, the Brussels elites will become less able to get cooperation. In their lust for power, perhaps the end result is they will simply become a figurehead much like the Pope was from Rome during Middle Ages?


Edit: clearly, I'm not the only one who thinks this!

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 Post subject: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:32 am
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This is a real worry. Ie, that all the relief & optimism that will probably accompany our leaving of the EU when it finally happens, will be marred by the acompanying disintigration of our own union - as some of the constituent parts of the former UK break off from the UK union to remain in the EU - backed up by some tempting EU subsidies to strengthen their anti-united British resolve.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:30 pm
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Bob / Therewasalight,
I hear what you are both saying but the EU (and the forces behind it) is a strong opponent who learns quickly how to 'deal' with people - i.e. keeping them 'as dumb as' !
They flood countries with immigrants (both EU and non-EU) and rely on people's good-naturedness/Spirit to bring in the multi-culture aspects and play it off, either way, to gain what they want.
They will also play off the 'threat' of strong ethnicities....as Watchet mentions (and as per SNP/Scotland). See also,
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article61980.ece
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/interreg3/carte/cartes_en.htm and other Interregs

Again, none of this moaning, pontificating, chest-thumping will work.....we have to point the finger and ask those difficult questions !!


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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Immigrants from their former colonies are the European Union's elite's best friend. Unlike resident ethnicities, immigrants don't have a legitimate, long-standing claim to a piece of territory within their Empire.

As their old state-Empires fall, immigrants are the only ethnic community that could embrace pan-European cooperation and the new Empire on face value. And the European elites, desperate to cling on to power, might hope they will be a backbone of a European State.

However, this idea must be doomed to fail because the immigrants are themselves of all different nationalities and prefer their own cultures, and prefer to use their own institutions - official or not - to rule themselves.

So strength is not something I associate with the EU, and if the ethnic genie is out of the bottle there will be no way of them putting it back in.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:55 pm
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I agree (naturally :lol: ) with therewaslights observations.

Not only that, but if we study the immigrant population that should "assume the mantle of empire" we see that it is rather ill equipped to do so, both from an ethnic, economic and educational standpoint.

The main ethnic argument angainst it, is that they don't share ethnicity with the current elite - on the contrary the current elite originates - AND DERIVES it's power from the original core ethnicities (aka people) of Europe. In other words Barroso and his succesors constantly have to balance being a "true" Kroat, "true" Serb and "true" 'Bosniark' with the demands of being cosmopolitarian enough to preserve a multi ethnic empire. One can look to such essential tragic figures as Slobodan Milosovic or Ibrahim Rugova to see the perils. One became a monster, the other an irrelevance.

As to the economic aspect; most immigrants that could be thought of as "imperial" are consumers of ressources. To be blunt: Go home from the ammo factory and we will be subjugated with which weapons? - Note that I am speaking metaphorically here!!!
Compare that with the British empire, the Habsburg empire or the Romans whose core ethnicities rose to prominence as economic powerhouses of their empires, their economic glory more than their subjugation of other people were what kept the empires together.

Then there is the educational aspect of it: These immigrants are for many reasons unfortunately lacking in the skills required to be a core constituancy of a European empire. How many future ministers hide in the banlius of France and Belgium, in the suburbs of Bremen and Birmingham?

So while some in "the elite" may toy with "electing another people" as Brecht, rather sarcastically put it, not many, I suspect, seriously believe it - they would be knaves and fools to do so.

Besides one should not underestimate the powers of assimilation. I even think I read the story on 'The Brussels Journal about a moroccan mosque, where there appeared a rift between Waloon-moroccans and Flemish-moroccans - now there's unintended assimilation for you PDT_Armataz_01_34

Rather immigration and the stress it undoubtedly put on societys ressources will probably be an extra source of disruption.

As for riding roughshod over the will of the people - just look at Italys compliance with EU code or how a deeply centralised Belgium quietly became a confederation of two almost separate states.

It may be that 80 % of our legislation eminates from Brussels, but the dirty little secret is, that probably 80 % of that 80 % eminates from international standardisation bodies, some under UN auspices, but more integrated in "the industry" that is being regulated - such as for instance the Basel II rules, that has wrought so much havoc.

All in all: A Brussels unable to assert "empire" preferably as an "ethnically European" nation state is fated to become a mere wart eventually - though the process may well be bloody (as it usually is here in Europa)

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 Post subject: Re: Where Catalonia leads ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:30 pm
Posts: 80
therewaslight wrote:
Immigrants from their former colonies are the European Union's elite's best friend. Unlike resident ethnicities, immigrants don't have a legitimate, long-standing claim to a piece of territory within their Empire.

As their old state-Empires fall, immigrants are the only ethnic community that could embrace pan-European cooperation and the new Empire on face value. And the European elites, desperate to cling on to power, might hope they will be a backbone of a European State.

However, this idea must be doomed to fail because the immigrants are themselves of all different nationalities and prefer their own cultures, and prefer to use their own institutions - official or not - to rule themselves.

So strength is not something I associate with the EU, and if the ethnic genie is out of the bottle there will be no way of them putting it back in.


I agree with your opinion about immigrants being the EU's friends - but only temporary friends. The EU has a 'value' for them - and as you say, they are not a strong force anyway - as everything, they are for the making of some useful crisis/legislation (as can be seen so well in this PC world).

EU grants/favours/money, etc have a way of turning a lackeys head - seen all too frequently in the leadership/politicians of all european countries. It's difficult to equate ethnic genies coming out of a bottle/lamp, especially when we have the 'slimy' Alex Salmond who would mug his granny for more power to his cause - the/his ego is insurmountable !

In a funny sort of way, i do hope the european ethnicities do make a claim, do recognise the real wants/needs of their people.....but all that has to come in a proper democratic, peaceful way (i.e.in getting along with one's neighbours) and not by the sneaky, grafting process of the EU that will, eventually, take away all our calls for ethnicities and where we will be treated as ONE big mass....all the same.....no diversification......no Spirit.....just zombies.
So, again, point the finger and ask those difficult questions of our politicians/rulers !


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