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 Post subject: Taken for fools? / Technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:54 am 
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Are we being taken for fools?

Quite understandably, Tory Diary gives an upbeat account of the Elastoplast King's input to the "great constitutional debate" that is beginning to emerge – one positive side-effect of the Telegraph's relentless pursuit of errant MPs. However, some of the negativity for which this blog is famed and detested in equal measure is found in the comments section.

We ourselves take the view that, in response to Mr Cameron's soaring rhetoric, people are entitled to be suspicious and, after ten years of Blair, even cynical. Any politician needs to recognise that, and should not be surprised if their rhetoric is treated with a certain amount of reserve.

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A bit of technocratic tinkering

"Three weeks in and it keeps getting worse," writes Richard Littlejohn, everyone's favourite "man-in-pub". As the revelations continue to pour out, though, there is a sense not so much of boredom as numbness creeping in. And the Telegraph, having started it all is rather in the position of the sorcerer's apprentice – as someone recently observed - having started something it does not know how to stop.

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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:45 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 1862
I am wary of the various ideas sloshing around the media and internet about the 'neccessary' reforms to our system of governance.

What I would rather see first is a Parliament that works as it is meant to. That seems to me to be the biggest problem. Any wholesale changes will not alter the attitude of MPs to doing the duty they have sworn to do and if it is a top down flurry of adjustment it will be for their benefit not ours. Just as with the Speaker - Martin was abominable but that isn't justification to change the role of the Speaker.

Do the politicians need fixing more than Parliament?


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:00 am 
Being American, the scariest thing about David Cameron to me is that he is basically a white British Obama-clone. Granted he's a "Conservative," but he's also in the party that's been out of power for about a decade too. Actually, the parallels are kind of creepy. Yeah, he sounds exactly like Obama did a month or two ago during "the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression." He'll propose whatever sounds good to people on the campaign trail, and then won't want to or won't be able to implement hardly any of it. He'll make a few changes that won't make one bit of difference, but he'll swear the game has totally changed and that all that "mess" with MPs expenses should fall on Blair and Brown. I swear, if Obama kept a diary of how he comes to the conclusions he's had, then David Cameron must have access to it (it's gotta be on-line somewhere dontcha know!) and have the One's processes down pat. He surely does a lovely imitation.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:29 am 
Nothing will change. Cameron will make all the right noises and a few cosmetic changes and it'll be business as usual.
What's needed are a few spontaneous lynchings.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:51 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
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With you there Gareth.
Our system is perfectly workable and has stood the test of time. The problem is stupidity, perfidy and laziness on the part of our judicial and political classes.
What we need is some straight-talking MPs who ask awkward questions and make serious changes. I would be exceedingly wary of any written addition to our Constitution, since good intentions is how we got here.
Rather I'd like to see some conventions instituted.
MPs are MPs only and are not chosen to be Ministers, who may primarily be drawn from the HoL (to try and get real world experience into Civil Service management).
The monarch has the duty when being asked to assent to something that is massively unpopular to put it to referendum. The mere threat of this would have scuppered Brown's Lisbon shenanigans.
It wouldn't need many MPs blogging from inside the bubble to rip it all open.

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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:30 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:27 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: Oxford, UK
Agree with Gareth and Sandy. We had a working constitution, it was undermined by dishonourable members, and some internal rules which encouraged, tempted, them. No doubt they would subvert any changes to the constitution too. We need to change the members, and the rules which tempted them, before making precipitate changes to our constitutional arrangements.

By all means look at the constitution, but with a commission NOT selected from the political class, over whatever timescale it takes. not less than a couple of years.

I don't have any problem with the things Cameron is saying, I'm just not very convinced that he would do them, or indeed could do them in the face of the self-interest of the status quo supporters. Occasionally I wonder if acting like a leader (because that's what the focus groupies say) is equivalent to being one...


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:16 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
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A non political Constitutional committee, hmm.
Prince Charles for chairman then?

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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:23 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:52 am
Posts: 225
SandyRham wrote:
A non political Constitutional committee, hmm.
Prince Charles for chairman then?


Absolutely not. That tosser would enshrine global bloody warming as the state religion.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:32 am 
Agree with all of these comments. Sorry to repeat the obvious cliche but we all know its hard to believe any politician's word. Nothing they SAY can restore that trust, only what they actually DO.
When Dave says:
"I believe the central objective of the new politics we need should be a massive, sweeping, radical redistribution of power: from the state to citizens; from the government to parliament; from Whitehall to communities; from the EU to Britain; from judges to the people; from bureaucracy to democracy,"

We reply, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wasn't it your party which wasted years of Parliamentary time in DESTROYING real democracy through the EU treaties? Have you forgotten that Tories have said, and still repeat, that they will not repeal the 1972 European Communities Act? When Dave tells us bluntly he will do THAT, then it would be an indication that he is serious. If not, these are mere politician's words - useless currency.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:45 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:11 am
Posts: 6700
Quote:
Absolutely not. That tosser would enshrine global bloody warming as the state religion


Hardly. He's got an interesting climb-down coming as the weather walks roughshod over callow theories. He'll need something to keep him occupied when the scorn and ridicule fly.

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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:52 am 
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You exaggerate, Bobby. Cameron is nothing to write home about but his political career was not launched in the home of a known terrorist. He is a socialist but not quite on the Obama level.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:05 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:58 am
Posts: 255
The way to redistribute power from the state to the people is for the state to do as little as possible, and for everything it does do to be within the purview of the people's representatives.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:55 pm 
He is only dangling the eu carrot till after the elections,then all will be quietly forgotten.Just another blair clone.Nothing about reducing the power of the whips so that mps can actually represent their constituents and no the party line.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 1862
Bobby Lane wrote:
Being American, the scariest thing about David Cameron to me is that he is basically a white British Obama-clone. Granted he's a "Conservative," but he's also in the party that's been out of power for about a decade too. Actually, the parallels are kind of creepy. Yeah, he sounds exactly like Obama did a month or two ago during "the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression." He'll propose whatever sounds good to people on the campaign trail, and then won't want to or won't be able to implement hardly any of it. He'll make a few changes that won't make one bit of difference, but he'll swear the game has totally changed and that all that "mess" with MPs expenses should fall on Blair and Brown. I swear, if Obama kept a diary of how he comes to the conclusions he's had, then David Cameron must have access to it (it's gotta be on-line somewhere dontcha know!) and have the One's processes down pat. He surely does a lovely imitation.

It is disturbing for me to hear what Barack Obama says. Obama is a black Tony Blair, who is a British Bill Clinton.(Who would be the salesman President or Prime Minister before Clinton?)

Often what they do is the very opposite of what they promised and we fall for it every time. I can't make up my mind whether these people actually have a plan beyond being in the highest office they can achieve. All the rest - the ballooning of bureaucracy, the enlargement of the State, loss of freedoms once understood to be inalienable, undermining of the education system, politicising the civil service, playing shell games with health, crime and economic statistics, avoiding the responsibilities that come with the job of being elected representatives - that can come about because the people at the top leave everything up in the air. They promise little beyond platitudes. They don't know how to run things and don't try, just let all the lower orders do whatever they think is appropriate in order to curry favour rather than in order to get results taxpayers and voters would appreciate.


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 Post subject: Re: A bit of technocratic tinkering
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:44 pm 
"What's needed are a few spontaneous lynchings."

Whilst I would oppose that on public health grounds,we do not want carrion birds dropping bits of politician all over our cities,we do have to instil fear into the political class. It is notable that the bombing and beheading communities simply have to growl for the PC to run around trying to appease them. One thing these mountebanks fear is loss of status and money,we need to be able to deny them their baubles if they displease us.


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